Freethought & Rationalism Archive

James The Least · 06-29-2013, 07:31 AM

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Originally Posted by Duvduv

Everyone has certainly heard of the famous Bishop Cardinal Emile Lustiger of Paris, who converted to Catholicism after the War after being cared for in a convent in Poland. The exact circumstances of his situation are never clear as far as I know.

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Originally Posted by James The Least

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Originally Posted by Davka

Only someone who was not intimately familiar with both Judaism and Christianity would make such an absurd statement.

Please name for me all of the ethnically Jewish bishops, priests, and popes in the Christian religion from 70 to 2013.

Good. Glad to know that this "Jewish religion" has actually had one ethnically Jewish Bishop in 2,000 years.

James The Least · 06-29-2013, 07:32 AM

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Originally Posted by Davka

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Originally Posted by James The Least

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Originally Posted by Davka

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Originally Posted by James The Least

"They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long..."
is probably lifted from Josephus or some other lost source. It certainly was not written by a Jew intimately involved with Pharisees, as our scholars love to fantasize.

You haven't spent much time around Jews, have you?

If you go to Israel today, you will find these self-same complaints being lodged by Jews against the ultra-orthodox, who all too often use their supposed piety as a shield for very impious lives.

Ah, so according to you, nothing's changed in 20 centuries ... and Christian Gentiles' hatred of Jews during that entire time was 100% justified. "The Jews" really were just a bunch of hypocrites who deserved to have their religion stolen by righteous gentiles. Got it.

No, all of that is according to you - or, to be more precise, according to your straw man.

According to me, "the Jews" have never been a monolithic group. Not only was there infighting between the various sects vying for power in Jerusalem, but there were tensions between the Jewish laity from the countryside and the "professional" Jews in Jerusalem.

Taking a phrase which criticizes the Pharisees in Jerusalem and claiming (with zero evidence or support) that it "certainly" was not written by Jews is pointless, spurious, and indicative of nothing more than your personal opinion.

What I actually wrote was this:

"It certainly was not written by a Jew intimately involved with Pharisees..."

James The Least · 06-29-2013, 07:36 AM

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Originally Posted by Davka

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Originally Posted by James The Least

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Originally Posted by Davka

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Originally Posted by James The Least

Christianity isn't a Jewish religion.

Only someone who was not intimately familiar with both Judaism and Christianity would make such an absurd statement.

Please name for me all of the ethnically Jewish bishops, priests, and popes in the Christian religion from 70 to 2013.

This request is completely unrelated to your unsubstantiated claim regarding Christianity.

It is? If Christianity was a Jewish religion, as you confidently assert over and over, then one would expect to actually find a few Jewish people involved in its post-70 hierarchy, one would think ... especially since (as you claim) it's rise was a Jewish reaction to the fall of the Temple.

Where are the Jewish Bishops in Christianity? Where did they go?

Tenorikuma · 06-29-2013, 07:50 AM

If you want an example of a religion created out of thin air about a man who never existed, look up the John Frum cult.

James The Least · 06-29-2013, 07:53 AM

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Originally Posted by Davka

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Originally Posted by Iskander

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Originally Posted by James The Least

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Originally Posted by Davka

Only someone who was not intimately familiar with both Judaism and Christianity would make such an absurd statement.

Please name for me all of the ethnically Jewish bishops, priests, and popes in the Christian religion from 70 to 2013.

No one can steal a religion, Judaism remains a religion. Jews that became Christians were no longer servants of Judaism and ceased to be identified as Jewish.

For much of the past ~2,000 years, this holds true. However, both at the inception of Christianity and for the past ~200 years, there have been numerous Jewish believers in Jesus as Messiah.

A few years ago, I had the privilege of editing the English translation of the book Joseph Rabinowitz and the Messianic Movement: The Herzl of Jewish Christianity by Kai Kjaer-Hansen. It is a fascinating account of a Russian Jew who, during a trip to the Holy Land, became convinced that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and returned to found a congregation of Jewish Believers in Jesus in the city of Kishinev.

Another interesting resource is the book Nazarene Jewish Christianity (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Dr. Ray Pritz, which examines the oldest known sect of Jewish believers in Jesus as Messiah, a group called the Nazarenes, who lived in Judea until the 4th century CE. This very Jewish sect of Jesus-believers persisted alongside both Gentile Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism for over 300 years.

It has never been mainstream, but there is a long tradition of Jews who have accepted the core teaching of Christianity (Jesus is Messiah, sacrificed for the sins of the world) without giving up their Jewishness or adherence to Jewish Law. For the most part, these Jews have been despised by Rabbinic Jews and Mainstream Christians alike.

"Numerous [modern] Jewish believers in Jesus as Messiah" has nothing to do with "ethnically Jewish bishops, priests, and popes in the Christian religion from 70 to 2013," which was the actual question. We are all well aware of the reclamation of the historic Jesus by Jews in our time, which makes sense
only if you ignore everything that Christians wrote about him in the first and second century.

We discussed the Nazarenes in this thread or another recent thread. Were they ethnically Jewish? Possibly, but it's unclear from what the heresiologists wrote about them.

James The Least · 06-29-2013, 07:55 AM

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Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

If you want an example of a religion created out of thin air about a man who never existed, look up the John Frum cult.

John Frum did exist. He was the Air Force pilot who landed on the island with the "cargo." His name wasn't John Frum, but he did exist.

Grog · 06-29-2013, 08:00 AM

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Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

If you want an example of a religion created out of thin air about a man who never existed, look up the John Frum cult.

Yes, the argument that it is impossible for Christianity to have evolved as a syncrenist mesh of ideas simmering in the hellenistic judaism of the day rather than founded by a man named Jesus Christ from Nazareth really underestimates the human ability to create religious beliefs.

Jaybees · 06-29-2013, 08:03 AM

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Originally Posted by James The Least

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Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

If you want an example of a religion created out of thin air about a man who never existed, look up the John Frum cult.

John Frum did exist. He was the Air Force pilot who landed on the island with the "cargo." His name wasn't John Frum, but he did exist.

It's a bit more complex than that. The John Frum legend preceded John Frum. John Frum was simply the name for a Messiah due to arrive with oodles of goodies. Lo and Behold, John Frum showed up, and He will return!!!

Davka · 06-29-2013, 08:42 AM

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Originally Posted by James The Least

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Originally Posted by Davka

No, all of that is according to you - or, to be more precise, according to your straw man.

According to me, "the Jews" have never been a monolithic group. Not only was there infighting between the various sects vying for power in Jerusalem, but there were tensions between the Jewish laity from the countryside and the "professional" Jews in Jerusalem.

Taking a phrase which criticizes the Pharisees in Jerusalem and claiming (with zero evidence or support) that it "certainly" was not written by Jews is pointless, spurious, and indicative of nothing more than your personal opinion.

What I actually wrote was this:

"It certainly was not written by a Jew intimately involved with Pharisees..."

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "intimately involved with." Is living next-door intimate involvement? How about seeing every day in or near the Temple?

Define your terms, and we'll talk.

Davka · 06-29-2013, 08:47 AM

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Originally Posted by James The Least

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Originally Posted by Davka

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Originally Posted by James The Least

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Originally Posted by Davka

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Originally Posted by James The Least

Christianity isn't a Jewish religion.

Only someone who was not intimately familiar with both Judaism and Christianity would make such an absurd statement.

Please name for me all of the ethnically Jewish bishops, priests, and popes in the Christian religion from 70 to 2013.

This request is completely unrelated to your unsubstantiated claim regarding Christianity.

It is? If Christianity was a Jewish religion, as you confidently assert over and over,

You are amazingly good at constructing strawmen.

The fact that Christianity began as a Jewish religion, and that the New Testament is a primarily Jewish document, has very little to do with what Christianity has morphed into over the centuries.

Saying "Christianity is a Jewish religion" is akin to saying 'Spanish is a Romance language.' One does not expect to find Latin words and phrases being uttered in Hispanic countries as a result; rather, one expects to find connections between many Spanish words and their Latin roots.

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06-29-2013, 07:50 AM	#514
Tenorikuma Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Japan Posts: 156	If you want an example of a religion created out of thin air about a man who never existed, look up the John Frum cult.

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