FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Philosophy & Religious Studies > History of Abrahamic Religions & Related Texts
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 01:23 AM

Notices

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-28-2013, 12:13 PM   #1
TedM
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA, Missouri
Posts: 3,070
Default Who is "Lord" in the NT?

Many verses seem to refer to God, many to Jesus, many to perhaps both. How is the reader to know when it isn't clearly one or the other? Is it safe to assume that since God was "Lord" in the OT and Jesus was also "Lord" in the NT that any NT reference to the Lord INCLUDES Jesus as a manifestation of God Himself?

See all 402 references here:

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/...rase&bookset=2
TedM is offline  
Old 07-28-2013, 01:24 PM   #2
spin
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Two things:

1) among those 402 hits are a number of cases that refer to the "lord Jesus (Christ)"; the discussion involved the use of "the lord" when it substituted a name, not when it was apposite.

2) why are you asking about the whole new testament when we were discussing Paul, who wrote before any of the other texts were written? Don't you need to try to establish what Paul meant?
spin is offline  
Old 07-28-2013, 02:17 PM   #3
Stuart
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: California
Posts: 39
Default

Most often it's simply the title to address to Jesus. This usage parallels the title by which slaves addressed their master (e.g, Matthew 25). Other places like in Acts 4:26 clearly is used to distinguish the father from Jesus as separate entities. Often its usage is from OT quotes and references to Angelology, which different groups interpreted differently even within the orthodox, but generally these are understood as YHWH.

BTW, since English translations often include "phantom" Greek words to "help clarify," you shouldn't trust any English translations, as these often have subtle theological assumptions present that may or may not be correct understandings. I suggest instead you look up using an interliner such as studylight's. Here is the look up for the same search

http://www.studylight.org/desk/inter...3=str_nas&ns=0
Stuart is offline  
Old 07-28-2013, 02:17 PM   #4
hjalti
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Iceland
Posts: 761
Default

After a quick glance (and not looking at the Greek) I don't think I saw a single instance of Jesus being called "the lord" in Matthew or Mark, but it seems to be used often for Jesus in Luke. Very interesting.
hjalti is offline  
Old 07-28-2013, 03:20 PM   #5
TedM
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA, Missouri
Posts: 3,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
Two things:

1) among those 402 hits are a number of cases that refer to the "lord Jesus (Christ)"; the discussion involved the use of "the lord" when it substituted a name, not when it was apposite.
I think this is a very weak argument because the term "the Lord Jesus" or "the Lord Jesus Christ" or "Jesus our Lord" all make it clear that the being/person called Jesus was considered to be an authority figure worthy of the title "Lord". Depending on the grammatical usage the word "the" would be used in some cases.


Quote:
2) why are you asking about the whole new testament when we were discussing Paul, who wrote before any of the other texts were written? Don't you need to try to establish what Paul meant?
Paul's own usage would be most important, but there may be value in the others. The closer in time and/or provenance, the more relevant.
TedM is offline  
Old 07-28-2013, 08:29 PM   #6
spin
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hjalti View Post
After a quick glance (and not looking at the Greek) I don't think I saw a single instance of Jesus being called "the lord" in Matthew or Mark, but it seems to be used often for Jesus in Luke. Very interesting.
The interesting think in Luke is that the writer of the birth narrative obviously didn't use it for Jesus and you have to wait until Lk 7:13 before you get your first exemplar of "the lord" in lieu of the name "Jesus". And look at the crazy way it is first used in Jn 4:1! Look:
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
and then see how the modern translations smooth over the mess, eg.,
NIV: Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John--
spin is offline  
Old 07-28-2013, 10:06 PM   #7
TedM
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA, Missouri
Posts: 3,070
Default

moved from spin's thread on McGrath:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by spin
Jeez, TedM, I tried to get you to look at the problem before you flooded the thread with nonsense, but hell, WTF were you thinking? I told you up front the issue I was talking about, ie the use of "lord" in lieu of a name ("arouse the lord's jealousy"), not as a title ("one lord, Jesus Christ") and you just couldn't get that right. I've been through this issue with you before and you seem resilient to understanding.
As long as Paul makes clear that "Lord" references Jesus much like the word "Teacher" could, then what difference does it make whether he OFTEN or NEVER uses "the Lord" in place of Jesus' name? Obviously it would be acceptable to do so. That's why "the Lord Jesus Christ" should not be dismissed as you seem to be doing. Who is to say that "the Lord" in "brother of the Lord" is not meant as a Title for Jesus in the same way, since obviously Paul could have written "brother of the Lord Jesus Christ", or "brother of our Lord"? (for clarity try "brother of the Teacher Jesus Christ" or "brother of our Teacher".)

In any case, among my examples I gave I count 10 uses of "the Lord" which are in lieu of the name "Jesus". Not 2.

I agree though that "the Lord" COULD refer to God in Galatians 1:19. I didn't know that was even up for debate. Of course it could. It's just that there is little reason to think that it does for all the reasons I've given.
TedM is offline  
Old 07-28-2013, 10:23 PM   #8
aa5874
Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
Two things:

1) among those 402 hits are a number of cases that refer to the "lord Jesus (Christ)"; the discussion involved the use of "the lord" when it substituted a name, not when it was apposite.

2) why are you asking about the whole new testament when we were discussing Paul, who wrote before any of the other texts were written? Don't you need to try to establish what Paul meant?
There is no evidence that the Pauline Corpus was before any writing in the NT and you yourself admitted there is NO provenance for the Pauline Corpus to establish it as the earliest source.

You have not presented any Pauline Corpus that has been dated to any time before c 66 CE.

We know that it has already been deduced that the Pauline Corpus is a product of multiple unknown authors.

How in the world can you determine what "Paul" means without first looking at the sources of antiquity that used the Pauline Corpus?


What did Ignatius, Clement of Rome, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius, Chrysostom and other Jesus cult writers claim about the "LORD"?

What did Writers of the Jesus cult that made references to Galatians 1.19 say about the "Lord"?

It is an extremely simply matter.

Clement's Letter to the Corinthians
Quote:

Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Sceptre of the majesty of God, did not come in the pomp of pride or arrogance, although He might have done so, but in a lowly condition, as the Holy Spirit had declared regarding Him.
Jesus is the LORD in the Jesus cult--not just the Pauline Corpus.
aa5874 is offline  
Old 07-29-2013, 04:28 AM   #9
hjalti
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Iceland
Posts: 761
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjalti View Post
After a quick glance (and not looking at the Greek) I don't think I saw a single instance of Jesus being called "the lord" in Matthew or Mark, but it seems to be used often for Jesus in Luke. Very interesting.
The interesting think in Luke is that the writer of the birth narrative obviously didn't use it for Jesus and you have to wait until Lk 7:13 before you get your first exemplar of "the lord" in lieu of the name "Jesus".
Yes, I also noticed that.

What I find interesting is that arguably the earliest and the most jewish gospels seem to avoid using "the lord" for Jesus.

I didn't see any examples in the general epistles (again, only a quick look over the search result Ted linked to).

Another interesting thing I noticed is that in Rev you have "the lord god" (kurios o theos). Perhaps "o kurios" is starting to become too ambiguous so they have to add "theos" when it's about the Christian god.
hjalti is offline  
Old 07-29-2013, 05:37 AM   #10
spin
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
moved from spin's thread on McGrath:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by spin
Jeez, TedM, I tried to get you to look at the problem before you flooded the thread with nonsense, but hell, WTF were you thinking? I told you up front the issue I was talking about, ie the use of "lord" in lieu of a name ("arouse the lord's jealousy"), not as a title ("one lord, Jesus Christ") and you just couldn't get that right. I've been through this issue with you before and you seem resilient to understanding.
As long as Paul makes clear that "Lord" references Jesus much like the word "Teacher" could, then what difference does it make whether he OFTEN or NEVER uses "the Lord" in place of Jesus' name? Obviously it would be acceptable to do so. That's why "the Lord Jesus Christ" should not be dismissed as you seem to be doing. Who is to say that "the Lord" in "brother of the Lord" is not meant as a Title for Jesus in the same way, since obviously Paul could have written "brother of the Lord Jesus Christ", or "brother of our Lord"? (for clarity try "brother of the Teacher Jesus Christ" or "brother of our Teacher".)

In any case, among my examples I gave I count 10 uses of "the Lord" which are in lieu of the name "Jesus". Not 2.
The two passages that I acknowledged were 1 Cor 6:14 and 1 Cor 11:23-27. Outside those it's merely guesswork. But see below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
I agree though that "the Lord" COULD refer to God in Galatians 1:19. I didn't know that was even up for debate. Of course it could. It's just that there is little reason to think that it does for all the reasons I've given.
I've decided that the best way to deal with the topic of Paul's usage of lord is to create a dedicated thread so that we can concentrate there on Paul. It is a unique case that is separate from the gospel usage in the sense that it is the very first christian literature we have and boasts no dependence on anything that came before other than Jewish literature, especially the LXX and hence its usage of "the lord".

Hopefully we can work out the uneven usage of kurios in the gospels here.
spin is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:41 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.