Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Iskander · 03-19-2013, 02:22 PM

The Christian and Muslim hell is like the Zoroastrian hell,
There is always room for one more article

Iskander · 03-19-2013, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Here is a comment made by April DeConick on her blog article entitled That Platonic Daimon again... in regard to the use of the term applied to Judas in the Coptic Gospel of Judas. She discusses how the gnostics may have used the term "daimon" and whether or not the gnostics used the word in the same way that Plato did.

The main argument reduces to two points, the first of which is stated as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by April DeConick

All of this is to say two things:

1. We have to be very cautious not to assume that the same word used in one tradition means exactly the same thing in another. This was the downfall of the History of Religions School, and we cannot make this same mistake twice!

This is a parallel to the OP. In the case of the OP the Christian gospel authors appear NOT to have used the same meaning, they have denigrated the meaning of "daimon" from "Guardian spirit" to "evil demon".

Quote:

Originally Posted by April DeConick

When a word is reappropriated (as the Gnostics did with Plato's ideas), meanings alter sometimes substantially. So what we have to do is figure out the tradition that has reappropriated the term, and how this reappropriation has been done.

Following the parallel to the OP the above may be paraphrased:

When a word is reappropriated (as the Christians did with Plato's ideas), meanings alter sometimes substantially. So what we have to do is figure out the tradition that has reappropriated the term, and how this reappropriation has been done.

In this case, it would appear, unless anyone can raise any objections, that the Christians reappropriated the term from the Greek philosophical and literary traditions.

The reappropriation appears to have been done for the explicit purpose of demonising one of the more central concepts in Greek philosophy - the concept of the "guardian spirit" or "heavenly twin".

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Yes, there are daimones in the Greek literature, but Christian daimones are in a class of their own; fulltime professional tortures with an eternal lake of fire in hell.

Thank you for this thought provoking thread which has even succeeded in bringing back the prodigal son, giving joy immense to the patron!

tanya · 03-19-2013, 02:56 PM

Thank you Jeffrey, for jumping into this thread, one which I find fascinating. Your contributions are much appreciated.

My question concerns a point raised by Pete, the first day, or so, when he mentioned Patristic evidence for use of δαίμων

Here is the ENGLISH version of Justin Martyr:

Quote:

Chap. LXXXIII.--IT IS PROVED THAT THE PSALM, "THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD," ETC., DOES NOT SUIT HEZEKIAH. ...
...
But our Jesus, who has not yet come in glory, has sent into Jerusalem a rod of power, namely, the word of calling and repentance[meant] for all nations over which demons held sway, as David says, 'The gods of the nations are demons.' And His strong word has prevailed on many to forsake the demons whom they used to serve, and by means of it to believe in the Almighty God because the gods of the nations are demons.(8)

Shesh has kindly explained about El Shaddi, and it seems that the original Greek, before the Christians, and maybe before LXX, regarded Demons as powerful deities, not necessarily evil, as Pete has outlined. Since LXX itself, describes expulsion of demons, (i.e. the conversion from neutral deity to evil deity had already occurred) here's my question: Can this "mistranslation" of the Masoretic text (shaddi) to imply "evil spirits", rather than powerful spirits, (neither inherently evil, nor absolutely good, like angels), represent evidence for interpolation of the LXX itself?

Appreciate your input on the forum, as always, Jeffrey.

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-19-2013, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Yes, there are daimones [??] in the Greek literature, but Christian daimones [sic] are in a class of their own; fulltime professional tortures with an eternal lake of fire in hell.

Really? Do you have any primary first century evidence to back up this claim? Is this idea really an exclusively Christian one? Nothing in the Rabbinic literature or the Pseudepigrapha to the same effect? Anything in the PGM or Hermetic literature?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-19-2013, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Thank you Jeffrey, for jumping into this thread, one which I find fascinating. Your contributions are much appreciated.

My question concerns a point raised by Pete, the first day, or so, when he mentioned Patristic evidence for use of δαίμων

Here is the ENGLISH version of Justin Martyr:

Quote:

Chap. LXXXIII.--IT IS PROVED THAT THE PSALM, "THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD," ETC., DOES NOT SUIT HEZEKIAH. ...
...
But our Jesus, who has not yet come in glory, has sent into Jerusalem a rod of power, namely, the word of calling and repentance[meant] for all nations over which demons held sway, as David says, 'The gods of the nations are demons.' And His strong word has prevailed on many to forsake the demons whom they used to serve, and by means of it to believe in the Almighty God because the gods of the nations are demons.(8)

What is the Greek text of this passage?

Quote:

Shesh has kindly explained about El Shaddi, and it seems that the original Greek, before the Christians, and maybe before LXX, regarded Demons as powerful deities, not necessarily evil, as Pete has outlined. Since LXX itself, describes expulsion of demons, (i.e. the conversion from neutral deity to evil deity had already occurred) here's my question: Can this "mistranslation" of the Masoretic text (shaddi) to imply "evil spirits", rather than powerful spirits, (neither inherently evil, nor absolutely good, like angels), represent evidence for interpolation of the LXX itself?

Interpolation? The insertion of a text into a passage?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-19-2013, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

The Christian and Muslim hell is like the Zoroastrian hell,
There is always room for one more article

This is hardly an answer -- let alone an adequate answer -- to the questions I posed to you. I wonder why you dodged them.

Jeffrey

Iskander · 03-19-2013, 03:26 PM

Christian, Zoroastrian, and Hindu, Buddhist...

The eternal hellfire of dedicated fulltime demons... is not apparent in the Torah nor in the early Greek literature.

Iskander · 03-19-2013, 03:28 PM

It is an adequate answer

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-19-2013, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Christian, Zoroastrian, and Hindu, Buddhist...

So .. not exclusively Christian, then.

Quote:

The eternal hellfire of dedicated fulltime demons... is not apparent in the Torah nor in the early Greek literature.

I did not ask you about what's in the Torah or early Greek lit (whatever that is). So you've given me yet another dodge of questions I've put to you.

And I'm still waiting for your primary evidence that backs up your assertion that early Christians believed that demons were dedicated full-time torturers living in some lake of fire.

May I have it please?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-19-2013, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

It is an adequate answer

Not to the questions of (a) whether you are aware of the TDNT article on δαίμων, δαιμόνιον and the literature adduced within it and (b) if you even know what the TDNT is.

Given this, I'll take it that your answer to these questions is "no" and that you are as uninformed about the things of which you speak in this thread as Pete is.

Jeffrey

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03-19-2013, 02:22 PM	#121
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	The Christian and Muslim hell is like the Zoroastrian hell, There is always room for one more article

03-19-2013, 03:26 PM	#127
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	Christian, Zoroastrian, and Hindu, Buddhist... The eternal hellfire of dedicated fulltime demons... is not apparent in the Torah nor in the early Greek literature.

03-19-2013, 03:28 PM	#128
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	It is an adequate answer

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