Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 08-22-2013, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

However the

Gospel_of_Mark may have been written before that.

How do you read the implications of the parable of the wicked tenants in Mk 12:1-9, based on Isa 5:1-7, which talks about the vineyard as being the house of Israel (Isa 5:7a)? How do you date Mk 12:9b? Isn't the tower Jerusalem?

I try to stay away from the Christian threads because of my ignorance about the NT. For example, I only know that Mark is often considered the oldest because of this thread.

Have to admit, my preference for an after destruction date for Mark is emotional, as Yoshke miracle arguments annoy me.

It probably is safer to steer clear of overtly christian threads, at least if you want to avoid much of the nonsense that can be thrown around over it. And there gets to be an info overload if you try to cover too many bases. That's why I tend to avoid most secondary sources.

spin · 08-22-2013, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Isn't the tower Jerusalem?

In context, It was quite normal to build a guard tower for any small farm.

The parable possibly does deal with the temple though but "can be" indirect in repsect to the tower.

Quote:

How do you date Mk 12:9b?

Looks like the author is using Isa 5: 1;7 as influnece to describe the fall of the temple.

On the other side of the coin, they have prophecy that the messiah predicted the destruction of the temple.

Umm, a prediction of a prophecy? prophecy of a prediction? a prophecy of a prophecy? a prediction of a prediction? Where exactly?

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

You also have to deal with this as a compilation of sources that existed before the temple fell.

I dont think you can hinge one sentance in a parable for accurate dating of the whole gospel, taking into context many different aspects that apply.

It's not one sentence: it's just one example.

outhouse · 08-22-2013, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

In context, It was quite normal to build a guard tower for any small farm.

The parable possibly does deal with the temple though but "can be" indirect in repsect to the tower.

Looks like the author is using Isa 5: 1;7 as influnece to describe the fall of the temple.

On the other side of the coin, they have prophecy that the messiah predicted the destruction of the temple.

Umm, a prediction of a prophecy? prophecy of a prediction? a prophecy of a prophecy? a prediction of a prediction? Where exactly?

.

Mark 13

spin · 08-22-2013, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

In context, It was quite normal to build a guard tower for any small farm.

The parable possibly does deal with the temple though but "can be" indirect in repsect to the tower.

Looks like the author is using Isa 5: 1;7 as influnece to describe the fall of the temple.

On the other side of the coin, they have prophecy that the messiah predicted the destruction of the temple.

Umm, a prediction of a prophecy? prophecy of a prediction? a prophecy of a prophecy? a prediction of a prediction? Where exactly?

Mark 13

Vaticinium ex eventu. It's more evidence for a post-war dating. (If you didn't get that, I'm sure I could interest you in a fine piece of real estate at the bottom of Puget Sound.)

outhouse · 08-22-2013, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Mark 13

Vaticinium ex eventu. It's more evidence for a post-war dating. (If you didn't get that, I'm sure I could interest you in a fine piece of real estate at the bottom of Puget Sound.)

Trying to work both sides.

I did state

Quote:

Looks like the author is using Isa 5: 1;7 as influnece to describe the fall of the temple.

andrewcriddle · 08-22-2013, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

However the

Gospel_of_Mark may have been written before that.

How do you read the implications of the parable of the wicked tenants in Mk 12:1-9, based on Isa 5:1-7, which talks about the vineyard as being the house of Israel (Isa 5:7a)? How do you date Mk 12:9b? Isn't the tower Jerusalem?

[t2]1 And He began to speak to them in parables: A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey. 2 "At the [harvest] time he sent a slave to the vine-growers, in order to receive [some] of the produce of the vineyard from the vine-growers. 3 "They took him, and beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 "Again he sent them another slave, and they wounded him in the head, and treated him shamefully. 5 "And he sent another, and that one they killed; and [so with] many others, beating some and killing others. 6 "He had one more [to send], a beloved son; he sent him last [of all] to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 7 "But those vine-growers said to one another, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours!' 8 "They took him, and killed him and threw him out of the vineyard. 9 "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others.[/t2]

Hi spin

You may well be right.

However:
a/ There is no mention of destruction of the tower merely a threatened destruction of the vine-growers (who may be the Jewish authorities rather then Jews in general).
b/ The parallel in Matthew 21 seems much more clearly written after the Jewish War (see verse 43).

Andrew Criddle

aa5874 · 08-22-2013, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

However the

Gospel_of_Mark may have been written before that.

How do you read the implications of the parable of the wicked tenants in Mk 12:1-9, based on Isa 5:1-7, which talks about the vineyard as being the house of Israel (Isa 5:7a)? How do you date Mk 12:9b? Isn't the tower Jerusalem?

[t2]1 And He began to speak to them in parables: A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey. 2 "At the [harvest] time he sent a slave to the vine-growers, in order to receive [some] of the produce of the vineyard from the vine-growers. 3 "They took him, and beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 "Again he sent them another slave, and they wounded him in the head, and treated him shamefully. 5 "And he sent another, and that one they killed; and [so with] many others, beating some and killing others. 6 "He had one more [to send], a beloved son; he sent him last [of all] to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 7 "But those vine-growers said to one another, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours!' 8 "They took him, and killed him and threw him out of the vineyard. 9 "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others.[/t2]

Hi spin

You may well be right.

However:
a/ There is no mention of destruction of the tower merely a threatened destruction of the vine-growers (who may be the Jewish authorities rather then Jews in general).
b/ The parallel in Matthew 21 seems much more clearly written after the Jewish War (see verse 43).

Andrew Criddle

The parables of the supposed Jesus character were written precisely so that they could not be understood and people would remain in sin.

Mark 4

Quote:

.... all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see , and not perceive ; and hearing they may hear , and not understand ; lest at any time they should be converted , and their sins should be forgiven them.

In any event, it is extremely easy to understand the writings attributed to Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius.

Vespasian was the Predicted Messianic ruler found in Hebrew Scripture.

In Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius, Vespasian was the Savior, Messiah, and Healer of the Empire.

In order for Vespasian to have been regarded as the Predicted Messianic ruler in Hebrew Scripture it must mean that there were NO known Jewish Messianic ruler BEFORE c 66-70 CE or NO Jew had fulfilled the prophecies in Hebrew Scripture up to c 66-70 CE.

Jesus as a Predicted Messianic ruler, Savior and Healer in the Entire Canon came some time later--sometime after c 121 CE or after Vespasian was dead.

spin · 08-22-2013, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

However the

Gospel_of_Mark may have been written before that.

How do you read the implications of the parable of the wicked tenants in Mk 12:1-9, based on Isa 5:1-7, which talks about the vineyard as being the house of Israel (Isa 5:7a)? How do you date Mk 12:9b? Isn't the tower Jerusalem?

[t2]1 And He began to speak to them in parables: A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey. 2 "At the [harvest] time he sent a slave to the vine-growers, in order to receive [some] of the produce of the vineyard from the vine-growers. 3 "They took him, and beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 "Again he sent them another slave, and they wounded him in the head, and treated him shamefully. 5 "And he sent another, and that one they killed; and [so with] many others, beating some and killing others. 6 "He had one more [to send], a beloved son; he sent him last [of all] to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 7 "But those vine-growers said to one another, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours!' 8 "They took him, and killed him and threw him out of the vineyard. 9 "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others.[/t2]

Hi spin

You may well be right.

However:
a/ There is no mention of destruction of the tower merely a threatened destruction of the vine-growers (who may be the Jewish authorities rather then Jews in general).

It succinctly has the disinheritance of the Jews from their (rented) lands. There is only mention of vine-growers, no-one else and Jerusalem wasn't destroyed in the war, Andrew. The use of Isa 5 confirms that we are dealing with the Jews, only the destruction found there isn't in Mk 12, only their disinheritance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

b/ The parallel in Matthew 21 seems much more clearly written after the Jewish War (see verse 43).

That's an argument for Marcan primacy if we needed one. Mt frequently improves upon Mk!

spin · 08-22-2013, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Mark 13

Vaticinium ex eventu. It's more evidence for a post-war dating. (If you didn't get that, I'm sure I could interest you in a fine piece of real estate at the bottom of Puget Sound.)

Trying to work both sides.

Could you expand your idea so that it makes sense to other people? In what way might I be working both sides? Do you believe that your Jesus could predict the future? If not you should be happy with the notion of vaticinium ex eventu.

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

I did state

Quote:

Looks like the author is using Isa 5: 1;7 as influnece to describe the fall of the temple.

After I mentioned it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

How do you read the implications of the parable of the wicked tenants in Mk 12:1-9, based on Isa 5:1-7, which talks about the vineyard as being the house of Israel (Isa 5:7a)?

And the writer of Mk 12 was not interested in the destruction of the temple, but in the disinheritance of the Jews.

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