Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 07-12-2013, 05:59 AM

Discussion in Guardian about influences.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/...ry?INTCMP=SRCH

Quote:

So, instead of the study of ancient Greece being predicated on its uniqueness – its isolated, exceptional and untouchable brilliance – some scholars are recasting the Greek world (and, in different ways, the Roman world) as part of a series of networked cultures in multivoiced conversation with the lands lying east and south of the Mediterranean.

Quote:

...From Tim Whitmarsh's introduction to The Romance Between Greece and the East (or via: amazon.co.uk), edited by Tim Whitmarsh and Stuart Thomson, to be published in September 2013.

Classicists are used to thinking of "Greek culture" as solid and self-evident, perpetuated through the ages by repetition of certain forms of social praxis (religion, education, athletics, etc.). But such a "traditional" conception was only one aspect of Greekness. Collective identities, as Stuart Hall reminds us, have many different modalities: they can be defensive, conservative and resistant to hybridity, but they need not be. In Ptolemaic Egypt, for example, where ethnic groups were taxed differently, those classed as "Greeks" included ethnic Egyptians working in the administration, and some Jews. In this context, Greekness was defined in a much more capacious (but no less rigorous) way than most scholars would be prepared to admit. Scholars of classical literature (even the phrase betrays exclusionary instincts) have, by contrast, typically cleaved to the most conservative definitions of Greekness possible. The reasons for this lie deep in the history of the formation of the discipline, which has shaped its practitioners into guardians of cultural and aesthetic value. This is not the occasion to explore those reasons, but it is certainly time to dispense with the prejudices that have followed from them.

Maybe Jesus is Greek...

Tommy · 07-12-2013, 06:47 AM

N/A

Scholarly consensus is Jesus was a black man.

Horatio Parker · 07-12-2013, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Discussion in Guardian about influences.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/...ry?INTCMP=SRCH

Quote:

So, instead of the study of ancient Greece being predicated on its uniqueness – its isolated, exceptional and untouchable brilliance – some scholars are recasting the Greek world (and, in different ways, the Roman world) as part of a series of networked cultures in multivoiced conversation with the lands lying east and south of the Mediterranean.

Quote:

...From Tim Whitmarsh's introduction to The Romance Between Greece and the East (or via: amazon.co.uk), edited by Tim Whitmarsh and Stuart Thomson, to be published in September 2013.

Classicists are used to thinking of "Greek culture" as solid and self-evident, perpetuated through the ages by repetition of certain forms of social praxis (religion, education, athletics, etc.). But such a "traditional" conception was only one aspect of Greekness. Collective identities, as Stuart Hall reminds us, have many different modalities: they can be defensive, conservative and resistant to hybridity, but they need not be. In Ptolemaic Egypt, for example, where ethnic groups were taxed differently, those classed as "Greeks" included ethnic Egyptians working in the administration, and some Jews. In this context, Greekness was defined in a much more capacious (but no less rigorous) way than most scholars would be prepared to admit. Scholars of classical literature (even the phrase betrays exclusionary instincts) have, by contrast, typically cleaved to the most conservative definitions of Greekness possible. The reasons for this lie deep in the history of the formation of the discipline, which has shaped its practitioners into guardians of cultural and aesthetic value. This is not the occasion to explore those reasons, but it is certainly time to dispense with the prejudices that have followed from them.

Maybe Jesus is Greek...

Our modern perspective is so saturated with genetics that I wonder if we can imagine how ancient people's thought of themselves and their cultural identity.

Plotinus is considered Greek, but by his features appears Ethiopian.

Jesus' Greekness is an interesting question. Jake Jones , IIRC, argued that gMark was a gnostic refutation of Judaism of Alexandrian origin.

Toto · 07-12-2013, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

...

Scholarly consensus is Jesus was a black man.

I don't think so. Is this supposed to be a joke? ironic?

steve_bnk · 07-12-2013, 08:32 AM

I've thought in the past a candidate for an HJ might be a Jew from Rome.

Trade means cultural contact. Languages and customs are learned. Contracts negotiated.

Considering the proximity of Greece, Rome, North Africa, and the Mid-East it is hard to imagine there would be no cultural osmosis. Humans always seem to like things that come from some place else.

Jaybees · 07-12-2013, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

...

Scholarly consensus is Jesus was a black man.

I don't think so. Is this supposed to be a joke? ironic?

Black humor.

steve_bnk · 07-12-2013, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

...

Scholarly consensus is Jesus was a black man.

I don't think so. Is this supposed to be a joke? ironic?

Perhaps sarcasm.

The fact that the Christian portrayal of JC has been generally a white fair skinned European might be viewed as a sort of running joke.

I was went to RCC schools. It wasn't until I took philosophy o religion in college that I realized Augustine was a dark skinned African.

If JC was an indigenous Jew of the region and as portrayed wandering around living on the grace of the faithful hanging with the poor he would have been short from low calories, wiry, and dark skinned. Not tall, blonde, fair skinned, and blue eyed.

Think Gandhi vs a white blonde Swede.

Black Americans have their own images of JC and Moses as well.

aa5874 · 07-12-2013, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Discussion in Guardian about influences.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/...ry?INTCMP=SRCH

Quote:

So, instead of the study of ancient Greece being predicated on its uniqueness – its isolated, exceptional and untouchable brilliance – some scholars are recasting the Greek world (and, in different ways, the Roman world) as part of a series of networked cultures in multivoiced conversation with the lands lying east and south of the Mediterranean.

Quote:

...From Tim Whitmarsh's introduction to The Romance Between Greece and the East, edited by Tim Whitmarsh and Stuart Thomson, to be published in September 2013.

Classicists are used to thinking of "Greek culture" as solid and self-evident,perpetuated through the ages by repetition of certain forms of social praxis (religion, education, athletics, etc.). But such a "traditional" conception was only one aspect of Greekness. Collective identities, as Stuart Hall reminds us, have many different modalities: they can be defensive, conservative and resistant to hybridity, but they need not be. In Ptolemaic Egypt, for example, where ethnic groups were taxed differently, those classed as "Greeks" included ethnic Egyptians working in the administration, and some Jews. In this context, Greekness was defined in a much more capacious (but no less rigorous) way than most scholars would be prepared to admit. Scholars of classical literature (even the phrase betrays exclusionary instincts) have, by contrast, typically cleaved to the most conservative definitions of Greekness possible. The reasons for this lie deep in the history of the formation of the discipline, which has shaped its practitioners into guardians of cultural and aesthetic value. This is not the occasion to explore those reasons, but it is certainly time to dispense with the prejudices that have followed from them.

Maybe Jesus is Greek...

There is no need to speculate. We know where Jesus came from. It is the author who may be Greek.

Aristides' Apology

Quote:

The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh...

There is no reasonable doubt that Christians writers claimed Jesus was from heaven.

Superman originated in Krypton and lived in America.

The author of Superman maybe Greek, or Jewish, or an American or ........

Jesus originated in Heaven and lived in Nazareth.

The author of the Jesus story maybe was Greek or an Egyptian or .........

Tertullian's On the Flesh of Christ

Quote:

As, then, before His birth of the virgin, He was able to have God for His Father without a human mother, so likewise, after He was born of the virgin, He was able to have a woman for His mother without a human father...

Isn't it most fascinating that we do NOT know anything about the authors of the Jesus stories except that they most likely were NOT Jews?

The unknown author of gJohn claimed Jesus was the LOGOS and God the Creator who existed BEFORE the Greeks.

The Jesus character is merely a non-Jewish interpretation of the Greek version of Hebrew Scripture [the Septuagint]

John 10:30 KJV

Quote:

I and my Father are one.

MrMacSon · 07-12-2013, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Maybe Jesus is Greek...

It is the author who may be Greek.

.... Christians writers claimed Jesus was from heaven ... and lived in Nazareth.

I agree it is likely that

Quote:

The Jesus character is merely a non-Jewish interpretation of the Greek version of Hebrew Scripture [the Septuagint]

but given the times the stories were developed, and disseminated in various forms; and while ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

" ... we do NOT know anything about the authors of the Jesus stories"

... it is possible some or all the authors (of the Jesus stories) were Jews in Greece, after having relocated to Greece during or after the Roman-Jewish Wars; or whose ancestors had relocated to Greece.

aa5874 · 07-12-2013, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Maybe Jesus is Greek...

It is the author who may be Greek.

.... Christians writers claimed Jesus was from heaven ... and lived in Nazareth.

I agree it is likely that

Quote:

The Jesus character is merely a non-Jewish interpretation of the Greek version of Hebrew Scripture [the Septuagint]

but given the times the stories were developed, and disseminated in various forms; and while ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

" ... we do NOT know anything about the authors of the Jesus stories"

... it is possible some or all the authors (of the Jesus stories) were Jews in Greece, after having relocated to Greece during or after the Roman-Jewish Wars; or whose ancestors had relocated to Greece.

The author of the short gMark was NOT a Jew but in any event Jesus was NOT Greek.

We all know where Christians claimed he was from.

It is documented in the NT Canon and Apologetic sources.

Against All Heresies 10

Quote:

Therefore this solitary and supreme Deity, by an exercise of reflection, brought forth the Logos first; not the word in the sense of being articulated by voice, but as a ratiocination of the universe, conceived and residing in the divine mind. Him alone He produced from existing things; for the Father Himself constituted existence, and the being born from Him was the cause of all things that are produced. The Logos was in the Father Himself, bearing the will of His progenitor, and not being unacquainted with the mind of the Father.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-12-2013, 06:47 AM	#2
Tommy Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tasmania Posts: 383	N/A Scholarly consensus is Jesus was a black man.

07-12-2013, 08:32 AM	#5
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	I've thought in the past a candidate for an HJ might be a Jew from Rome. Trade means cultural contact. Languages and customs are learned. Contracts negotiated. Considering the proximity of Greece, Rome, North Africa, and the Mid-East it is hard to imagine there would be no cultural osmosis. Humans always seem to like things that come from some place else.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.