FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Philosophy & Religious Studies > History of Abrahamic Religions & Related Texts
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 01:23 AM

Notices

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-04-2013, 09:07 PM   #21
spin
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

LXX

Deut 32:17
εθυσαν δαιμονιοις και ου θεω θεοις οις ουκ ηδεισαν καινοι προσφατοι ηκασιν ους ουκ ηδεισαν οι πατερες αυτων
They sacrificed to demons, which were no God, to gods they knew not, to new gods that recently appeared, which your fathers did not fear.
Ps 106:37
και εθυσαν τους υιους αυτων και τας θυγατερας αυτων τοις δαιμονιοις
They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons
Isa 13:21
και αναπαυσονται εκει θηρια και εμπλησθησονται αι οικιαι ηχου και αναπαυσονται εκει σειρηνες και δαιμονια εκει ορχησονται
But desert beasts will lie down there, and their houses will be full of howling creatures; there owls will dwell, and goat-demons will dance there.
ETA:

AJ 8.45 talks of god giving Solomon the ability to drive out demons (δαιμονων).
spin is offline  
Old 03-04-2013, 09:39 PM   #22
Sheshbazzar
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: On the path of knowledge
Posts: 8,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman
Thanks Shesh. But where do the Romans fit in? The point is that it was not the Greeks who were in control of the empire during the trashing of the Jewish and the Pagan religions (of the Greeks) it was the Romans
Rome capitalized upon the liberties of Hellenism and on the Platonic and Stotic schools Hellenic culture and language, as well as the religious history of the Jews, subverting and perverting both to her own power mad ends.

The Democratic principals of Hellenic society were first used to consolidate the power and authority of the Roman Church, and once her propaganda control over the populace was achieved, The Imperial army was then employed to strip away every vestige of human liberty of thought and freedom of association.
All of the personal liberties of conscience so long enjoyed this advanced democratic civilization were stripped away, leaving every land and province under Roman domination subject to the the most horrid and murderous forms of religious coercion and mind control that the human mind could devise.

"Judge not according to the orthodox standard of a system, religious, philosophical, political, but according as things promote or fail to promote the delicacy, integrity and authority of Conscience." ....Acton

Under that strange new religion created by Constantine & Co. no man was any longer entitled to either speak or act according to the authority of personal conscience.
With the rise of The Catholic 'Creeds' it became; 'Repeat after us, Exactly according to the words of the confession that we require of you, NOW! or forfeit your life'.

If Acton had made that above statement in the presence of Catholic authorities during the period of their political power, he would have been forced to recant or his eyes and tongue would have been plucked out, and his head would have rolled as did those of thousands of others who thought they were entitled to any liberty of thought, or authority of their individual conscience regarding religion.

'WE will tell you what to think, and WE will tell you what you shall say;'

THIS. make no mistake about it, is what prevailed in Catholic controlled countries for over a thousand years, and was long continued by the Protestants. Heads still rolled for any who were so 'foolish' as to express un-catholic religious views.

And given political clout the fundamentalist leaders of either group would again today just as quickly and self-righteously again strip men of liberty of thought and impose their religious Creeds upon all men, __for christ's sake.

If there be an Elohim, what we most need 'saved' from, is the rise of religious fanatics and 'authorities' to positions of political power.
Sheshbazzar is offline  
Old 03-04-2013, 09:45 PM   #23
mountainman
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Falls Creek, Oz.
Posts: 11,192
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
LXX

Deut 32:17
εθυσαν δαιμονιοις και ου θεω θεοις οις ουκ ηδεισαν καινοι προσφατοι ηκασιν ους ουκ ηδεισαν οι πατερες αυτων
They sacrificed to demons, which were no God, to gods they knew not, to new gods that recently appeared, which your fathers did not fear.
Ps 106:37
και εθυσαν τους υιους αυτων και τας θυγατερας αυτων τοις δαιμονιοις
They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons
Isa 13:21
και αναπαυσονται εκει θηρια και εμπλησθησονται αι οικιαι ηχου και αναπαυσονται εκει σειρηνες και δαιμονια εκει ορχησονται
But desert beasts will lie down there, and their houses will be full of howling creatures; there owls will dwell, and goat-demons will dance there.
ETA:

AJ 8.45 talks of god giving Solomon the ability to drive out demons (δαιμονων).

Thanks spin.

I take it there is a difference between demon (δαιμονων) and daimon [δαίμων] in the Greek, but so far I have only looked at "daimon". I'd guess that the former is associated with "malefic" in contrast to the latter.

Are we looking at the version of the LXX by Origen the 3rd century Christian?

Do these "demons" in the (Christian) LXX match the sense of the Hebrew text?

You have cited this for some purpose which remains obscure to me atm.

Feel free to shed light on the subject.
mountainman is offline  
Old 03-04-2013, 09:57 PM   #24
mountainman
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Falls Creek, Oz.
Posts: 11,192
Default

I notice that other NT translations such as the NLT produce a large number of instances where the word "demon" or "demons" is rendered into English.

For example Blueletter NLT

Quote:
occurs 53 times in 45 verses in the NLT
Page 1 / 2 exact matches (Deu 32:17 - Luk 8:27
51 of these are in the NLT translation of the new testament.
mountainman is offline  
Old 03-04-2013, 10:11 PM   #25
Sheshbazzar
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: On the path of knowledge
Posts: 8,889
Default

שדד 'shadad' or השודד 'ha'shodey'.

The interpretation is not Greek, but in the comprehension of the Hebrew.
Sheshbazzar is offline  
Old 03-04-2013, 10:16 PM   #26
mountainman
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Falls Creek, Oz.
Posts: 11,192
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar View Post
.....

All of the personal liberties of conscience so long enjoyed this advanced democratic civilization were stripped away, leaving every land and province under Roman domination subject to the the most horrid and murderous forms of religious coercion and mind control that the human mind could devise.
"Judge not according to the orthodox standard of a system, religious, philosophical, political, but according as things promote or fail to promote the delicacy, integrity and authority of Conscience." ....Acton
Under that strange new religion created by Constantine & Co. no man was any longer entitled to either speak or act according to the authority of personal conscience.

With the rise of The Catholic 'Creeds' it became; 'Repeat after us, Exactly according to the words of the confession that we require of you, NOW! or forfeit your life'.

If Acton had made that above statement in the presence of Catholic authorities during the period of their political power, he would have been forced to recant or his eyes and tongue would have been plucked out, and his head would have rolled as did those of thousands of others who thought they were entitled to any liberty of thought, or authority of their individual conscience regarding religion.

Totally agree with all this.

The oppressive cloud has lifted (over the centuries) somewhat but there are still remnants in the 21st century.



Quote:
'WE will tell you what to think, and WE will tell you what you shall say;'

THIS. make no mistake about it, is what prevailed in Catholic controlled countries for over a thousand years, and was long continued by the Protestants. Heads still rolled for any who were so 'foolish' as to express un-catholic religious views.

And given political clout the fundamentalist leaders of either group would again today just as quickly and self-righteously again strip men of liberty of thought and impose their religious Creeds upon all men, __for christ's sake.

It's a bit of a racket eh?

This racket has caused a great deal of pain and suffering and promoted a great deal of ignorance.

But like you commented somewhere earlier .... "I come to bury Caesar BeJezus not to praise him"


Quote:
If there be an Elohim, what we most need 'saved' from, is the rise of religious fanatics and 'authorities' to positions of political power.
Too true.

But also if there be an Elohim then he or she or it may be infused into each of our lives in a manner described by the gnostics and related to what they have termed a "Guardian spirit" or "daimon".

Do you know whether there is any equivalence of this concept in the philosophy/theology/metaphysics of the Hebrew sources?
mountainman is offline  
Old 03-04-2013, 10:33 PM   #27
spin
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
LXX

Deut 32:17
εθυσαν δαιμονιοις και ου θεω θεοις οις ουκ ηδεισαν καινοι προσφατοι ηκασιν ους ουκ ηδεισαν οι πατερες αυτων
They sacrificed to demons, which were no God, to gods they knew not, to new gods that recently appeared, which your fathers did not fear.
Ps 106:37
και εθυσαν τους υιους αυτων και τας θυγατερας αυτων τοις δαιμονιοις
They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons
Isa 13:21
και αναπαυσονται εκει θηρια και εμπλησθησονται αι οικιαι ηχου και αναπαυσονται εκει σειρηνες και δαιμονια εκει ορχησονται
But desert beasts will lie down there, and their houses will be full of howling creatures; there owls will dwell, and goat-demons will dance there.
ETA:

AJ 8.45 talks of god giving Solomon the ability to drive out demons (δαιμονων).

Thanks spin.

I take it there is a difference between demon (δαιμονων) and daimon [δαίμων] in the Greek, but so far I have only looked at "daimon". I'd guess that the former is associated with "malefic" in contrast to the latter.
It would be good if you stopped trying to talk about things you have no knowledge of. You might learn about Greek noun forms. δαιμονων is the genitive plural of δαίμων, ie it's the same word, but adapted to the grammatical necessity of the context. So, no there is no difference between them. Try again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman View Post
Are we looking at the version of the LXX by Origen the 3rd century Christian?
Look here who's playing the dirty christian tricks card. What do you propose that the christians changed δαίμων from and why should Josephus use the same word in a similar manner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman View Post
Do these "demons" in the (Christian) LXX match the sense of the Hebrew text?

You have cited this for some purpose which remains obscure to me atm.

Feel free to shed light on the subject.
The obscurity here is that your o.p. is full of shit. Does the light dawn on you?
spin is offline  
Old 03-04-2013, 10:44 PM   #28
Sheshbazzar
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: On the path of knowledge
Posts: 8,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman
Do you know whether there is any equivalence of this concept in the philosophy/theology/metaphysics of the Hebrew sources?
The concept of 'El Shaddai', if one is so persuaded, is very personal and very powerfully convicting.
-In other words if one believes their 'shadd' is present, it is to all intents actually -there- and is existent to the one that so believes.

Like 'daemon', one may have a 'shadd', an attendant ... -the English really does not have an exact word that can convey all of the senses of the Hebrew- but roughly speaking a present 'Almighty', an 'irresistible force', a destroyer and a terror.
With the terminal yod it becomes personal, like 'Elohi'> 'MY El' so 'Shaddi' > MY Almighty' -irresistible force, destroyer and terror.

Something fearful and to be feared by all, including the believer themselves; 'Thou shalt fear...' ( see Deut 6:13, Lev 25:43, and Prov 2:5)

The elohim (gods) of the nations are all likewise the 'shadd' ('daemons') powerful, and 'terrors' to the these peoples.

There are many shaddim (plural, powerful-terrible-destroying-ones) that are believed in, but only One Shadd whose name alone is יהוה

This was not at all clear to me until I had studied renditions in various Hebrew translations of the NT.


.
Sheshbazzar is offline  
Old 03-04-2013, 10:55 PM   #29
mountainman
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Falls Creek, Oz.
Posts: 11,192
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
The obscurity here is that your o.p. is full of shit. Does the light dawn on you?
No. Explain yourself FFS.
mountainman is offline  
Old 03-04-2013, 11:30 PM   #30
spin
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
The obscurity here is that your o.p. is full of shit. Does the light dawn on you?
No. Explain yourself FFS.


Thread title:
Subversion of the Greek "daimon" [δαίμων] in the Gospels
Both the LXX and Josephus reflect the same usage of δαίμων as seen in the gospels. You then showed the fact that you knew nothing about Greek with your 'I take it there is a difference between demon (δαιμονων) and daimon [δαίμων] in the Greek, but so far I have only looked at "daimon".' and attempted to explain away the LXX by asserting Origen must have bowdlerized the text to use δαίμων with no evidence or other reason for doing so, other than because of your conclusion.

:tombstone:

It's dead, Jim.
spin is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:39 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.