Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 06-23-2013, 09:34 PM

So what does Hebrews 4:9 mean?

[The Lord] also said, The one who stands on the housetop,1 for they were not to escape in the usual way, since the concern of [God's] solicitude was not over them. He also said, Woe to those who will be with child.2 [He was speaking] of those who were tortured during the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans. There will be distress for this people,3 he said, such that women will eat their children.

§13. [Keep on praying and ask that your flight may not be in winter or on the day of the Sabbath* lest you be led away [captive] at a time when it is not permitted to work. Just as winter is without fruit and the Sabbath without labour, let it not be that you be led away [captive] when you have neither fruit nor work. In winter and the Sabbath, one of necessity and the other willingly; winter of necessity and the Sabbath willingly. Therefore, let not the constraint of others nor your own will take you away from the work of the Lord your God. Thus, through winter and the Sabbath, he showed them once again that misfortune was going to befall them. After he had shown them his anger and had shown them that it would fall from above deservedly, he became merciful towards them again and taught them to remain in prayer, not in order [to try] to turn aside the decree of the harsh punishment hanging over them, but to change the time and the day of the great calamity that was [imminent] upon them. By his mercy [the Lord] united two things in his discourse. "It is true that distress will come and that you will have to flee; however, Keep on praying, lest this event and sadness come upon you in winter; for you cannot avoid it, even if you wanted to flee from the tribulation; or, on account of the Sabbath, so that the tribulation will not surprise you during your rest period.

§14. {He showed his solicitude for the Law, as a son of the Law, and made himself its guardian, lest the Law of Moses be abrogated. Lest, he said, there be found among you some who, being too innocent and simple, might keep the Sabbath in time of war as you keep it [in time of peace], and they kill you, like those who were killed in the cave. In winter and on the Sabbath. Winter is the time of repose from all the work of the summer, and the Sabbath is [the repose] of the seven days, [the repose] for the day of the coming, according to what [the apostle] has said, The Sabbath of God continues until now, [Heb 4:9] for the Sabbath is the limit for works. As [the Lord] has said, Remain in prayer, so that you may be worthy to escape from all that is going to take place.2 It is said that he was speaking of the punishment in Jerusalem, and at the same time, referring to the end of this world. You will take flight,3 he said, because on [the day of] the resurrection, a fearful trembling will grasp hold of all those who are not perfectly prepared for it. But others hold that [this] was said only in relation to the apostles, so that if the sun were eclipsed on the sixth day. they would be comforted. [He said, on the Sabbath, to them because] the Jews used to boast of the Sabbath, and, in winter, because it is the cold season. If God had not shortened these days, no human being would have been saved. It was not the number of days or hours that was shortened, but time itself was lessened, for the sake of the elect,6 in order that their tribulations would not be multiplied, but rather shortened, so that redemption might reach [them]. [Ephrem Diatessaron McCarthy trans. p. 277 - 278]

stephan huller · 06-23-2013, 09:52 PM

Ephrem is yet another witness to the idea that Jesus came down after 6000 years. He does this by making clear that he was crucified after 6000 years as we read:

Quote:

In the beginning then by the First-born were the works created. For God said, Let there be light, and it was created. To whom then did He give the command, for as yet nothing existed? Now if He had given the command to light, He would not have commanded it to be, for He said, Let there be light. For this word ' it was,' is different from 'let it be.' He evidently intended the First-born when He created Adam, [saying,] Let Us make man in Our Image, according to Our Likeness. It were blindness to think that He said it to Adam : seeing it was He Who quickened him by the Wood after six thousand years', Who also formed him in the beginning on the sixth day, when- he provoked Him with the wood. Who so thinketh again to say, that He gave command to the Angels, it is a manifest audacity: if it be note, right that the servant should be partaker with the Lord and companion in the work ; how much more is it fitting for the Son to exercise the commands of His Father, who with a voice was able to finish His work, and with a word the creation.

stephan huller · 06-23-2013, 09:54 PM

The point then is that there is a tradition in the eastern tradition including Marcion:

1. Jesus 'appeared' at 6000 AM
2. He was crucified 'after' 6000 AM
3. a 'Sabbath' appeared thereafter which is explicitly identified as the period between the crucifixion and the destruction of the temple (which in Aphraates is specifically referenced as 7 x 7 = the years between 20 to 69 CE)

I think the same idea (albeit without mention of 'the sabbath' appears in Irenaeus Book Two. Have to watch a movie with my wife.

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06-23-2013, 09:34 PM	#111
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	So what does Hebrews 4:9 mean? [The Lord] also said, The one who stands on the housetop,1 for they were not to escape in the usual way, since the concern of [God's] solicitude was not over them. He also said, Woe to those who will be with child.2 [He was speaking] of those who were tortured during the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans. There will be distress for this people,3 he said, such that women will eat their children. §13. [Keep on praying and ask that your flight may not be in winter or on the day of the Sabbath* lest you be led away [captive] at a time when it is not permitted to work. Just as winter is without fruit and the Sabbath without labour, let it not be that you be led away [captive] when you have neither fruit nor work. In winter and the Sabbath, one of necessity and the other willingly; winter of necessity and the Sabbath willingly. Therefore, let not the constraint of others nor your own will take you away from the work of the Lord your God. Thus, through winter and the Sabbath, he showed them once again that misfortune was going to befall them. After he had shown them his anger and had shown them that it would fall from above deservedly, he became merciful towards them again and taught them to remain in prayer, not in order [to try] to turn aside the decree of the harsh punishment hanging over them, but to change the time and the day of the great calamity that was [imminent] upon them. By his mercy [the Lord] united two things in his discourse. "It is true that distress will come and that you will have to flee; however, Keep on praying, lest this event and sadness come upon you in winter; for you cannot avoid it, even if you wanted to flee from the tribulation; or, on account of the Sabbath, so that the tribulation will not surprise you during your rest period. §14. {He showed his solicitude for the Law, as a son of the Law, and made himself its guardian, lest the Law of Moses be abrogated. Lest, he said, there be found among you some who, being too innocent and simple, might keep the Sabbath in time of war as you keep it [in time of peace], and they kill you, like those who were killed in the cave. In winter and on the Sabbath. Winter is the time of repose from all the work of the summer, and the Sabbath is [the repose] of the seven days, [the repose] for the day of the coming, according to what [the apostle] has said, The Sabbath of God continues until now, [Heb 4:9] for the Sabbath is the limit for works. As [the Lord] has said, Remain in prayer, so that you may be worthy to escape from all that is going to take place.2 It is said that he was speaking of the punishment in Jerusalem, and at the same time, referring to the end of this world. You will take flight,3 he said, because on [the day of] the resurrection, a fearful trembling will grasp hold of all those who are not perfectly prepared for it. But others hold that [this] was said only in relation to the apostles, so that if the sun were eclipsed on the sixth day. they would be comforted. [He said, on the Sabbath, to them because] the Jews used to boast of the Sabbath, and, in winter, because it is the cold season. If God had not shortened these days, no human being would have been saved. It was not the number of days or hours that was shortened, but time itself was lessened, for the sake of the elect,6 in order that their tribulations would not be multiplied, but rather shortened, so that redemption might reach [them]. [Ephrem Diatessaron McCarthy trans. p. 277 - 278]

06-23-2013, 09:54 PM	#113
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The point then is that there is a tradition in the eastern tradition including Marcion: 1. Jesus 'appeared' at 6000 AM 2. He was crucified 'after' 6000 AM 3. a 'Sabbath' appeared thereafter which is explicitly identified as the period between the crucifixion and the destruction of the temple (which in Aphraates is specifically referenced as 7 x 7 = the years between 20 to 69 CE) I think the same idea (albeit without mention of 'the sabbath' appears in Irenaeus Book Two. Have to watch a movie with my wife.

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