Freethought & Rationalism Archive

steve_bnk · 05-28-2013, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Do you really think that no one had come across this anomaly in Psalms in the last 2600 years until now? Do you not think it was more than ample time for someone to fix up the anomaly, at least in the days of the Tannaim and Amoraim?
As it happens the plagues you are concerned about were considered a continuation of the previous plague, not an independent one, having no independent warning to Pharoah.
But lest this Forum become a yeshiva class examining the myriads of commentaries on every potential anomaly in every page of every book of the Jewish bible, I suggest we let it go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

I think the Gilgamesh issue makes it difficult for someone who holds that the bible was dictated by God to Moses. This is hardly the only problem with that view.

If we get beyond that, there is no reason to hold that the 600,000 men were actually there.

The

Plagues_of_Egypt is another little problem,

For example there is Psalm 74 with seven plagues -

In Psalms 105 the number of plagues seems to be eight (maybe nine) [after looking at the literature, this is usually described as seven or eight] -

The simplest explanation is that the Psalms were written before the Plagues in Exodus were finalized.

Duvi's argument about the deficiencies of archaeology was pretty feeble but it's not like that is the only enemy of a literal interpretation. It's similar to the creation, it's not just the big bang.

Quoting one part of the bible to explain another part is kind of useless as we consoder all of the bible with skepticism

semiopen · 05-28-2013, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Do you really think that no one had come across this anomaly in Psalms in the last 2600 years until now? Do you not think it was more than ample time for someone to fix up the anomaly, at least in the days of the Tannaim and Amoraim?
As it happens the plagues you are concerned about were considered a continuation of the previous plague, not an independent one, having no independent warning to Pharoah.
But lest this Forum become a yeshiva class examining the myriads of commentaries on every potential anomaly in every page of every book of the Jewish bible, I suggest we let it go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

I think the Gilgamesh issue makes it difficult for someone who holds that the bible was dictated by God to Moses. This is hardly the only problem with that view.

If we get beyond that, there is no reason to hold that the 600,000 men were actually there.

The

Plagues_of_Egypt is another little problem,

For example there is Psalm 74 with seven plagues -

In Psalms 105 the number of plagues seems to be eight (maybe nine) [after looking at the literature, this is usually described as seven or eight] -

The simplest explanation is that the Psalms were written before the Plagues in Exodus were finalized.

Duvi's argument about the deficiencies of archaeology was pretty feeble but it's not like that is the only enemy of a literal interpretation. It's similar to the creation, it's not just the big bang.

Since I mistakenly identified Psalm 78 as Psalm 74, I must continue.

Most scholars consider the Psalm plagues as based on the account in Exodus, by using textual criticism as discussed by Jeffrey Leonard in

Identifying Inner-Biblical Allusions:
Psalm 78 as a Test Case

Quote:

A preexilic date for Psalm 78 is suggested also by the fact that the psalm shares considerable language with historical tradi*tions usually thought to be early—the Song of the Sea in Exodus 15, the Song of Moses in Deuteronomy 32, the Ark Narrative in 1 Samuel 4-6 and 2 Samuel 6, and the Yahwistic and Elohistic narratives—but shows no certain overlap with the later Priestly narrative.53

There are seven plagues in the Yahwist account in Exodus, while the priest added three.

Quote:

In his study of the features of early Israelite poetry, David Robertson locates Psalm 78 at a point where "standard forms are overwhelmingly predominant, but where early ones are more numerous than in standard poetry."54 He aligns this period with the late tenth to early ninth centuries B.C.E.55 Robertsons is only a relative chronology, however, allowing for some flexibility in the psalms date. Elsewhere, I have argued in favor of a slightly later date for the psalm, one associated with Hezekiahs reforms and especially his outreach to the north.

The Song of the Sea is supposed to be one of the oldest parts of the bible and is notable for it's lack of the definitive article (the), Psalm 78 doesn't seem to have many of these either.

Yahwist and Priestly Versions of the Plagues: 7 vs. 10

Duvduv · 05-28-2013, 06:17 PM

I will know not toseek dialogue with you, Semiopen, on these issues. You aren't the slightest bit interested in discussing any issue related to 2000 years of commentary from th Jewish sources. Only heaven knows whereyou come up with outlandish ideas. A " priest" added three plagues? Who, what, where, when, and why?

Adam · 05-28-2013, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

However, you ignore that during the 18th Dynasty there was a third pharaoh in the Delta, and the expulsion of this Hyksos king is recognized as history that renders your Post #218 quite a false dichotomy. Would lack of archaeological evidence for the Hyksos leaving Egypt make you deny they ever left? The Exodus involving Moses could have been that or something similar that did not involve 38 years in a particular location, much less the particular site excavated as Kadesh that was only labeled as such since 1916. Wandering in the Wilderness could have been in Trans-Jordan or Arabia in sites not yet excavated or (in Arabia) accessible.

No, the Hyksos king's expulsion is NOT recognized as history... .

And you present your contrasting version. However, that isn't the issue. You have not shown any historian or history book that disputes the Hyksos expulsion. You don't think it's history and thus doesn''t belong in historical accounts, but you are not an historian. What do historians say? It's "history" until it's removed from the history books. Publish your findings and get them to change. In the meantime your dichotomy seems a false choice.

spin · 05-28-2013, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

the Hyksos king's expulsion is NOT recognized as history.

Can you point to any tenured egyptologists supporting such a claim?

steve_bnk · 05-28-2013, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I will know not toseek dialogue with you, Semiopen, on these issues. You aren't the slightest bit interested in discussing any issue related to 2000 years of commentary from th Jewish sources. Only heaven knows whereyou come up with outlandish ideas. A " priest" added three plagues? Who, what, where, when, and why?

2000 years of commentary on a myth doesn't make a myth real.

Sounds like the Christian arguments from an a-priori assumption of biblical truth. It is true because I already know it to be true, hence no need to present an argument and evidence of truth.

Duvduv · 05-29-2013, 12:01 AM

Looks like you are not very familiar with Jewish exegesis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I will know not toseek dialogue with you, Semiopen, on these issues. You aren't the slightest bit interested in discussing any issue related to 2000 years of commentary from th Jewish sources. Only heaven knows whereyou come up with outlandish ideas. A " priest" added three plagues? Who, what, where, when, and why?

2000 years of commentary on a myth doesn't make a myth real.

Sounds like the Christian arguments from an a-priori assumption of biblical truth. It is true because I already know it to be true, hence no need to present an argument and evidence of truth.

spin · 05-29-2013, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I will know not toseek dialogue with you, Semiopen, on these issues. You aren't the slightest bit interested in discussing any issue related to 2000 years of commentary from th Jewish sources. Only heaven knows whereyou come up with outlandish ideas. A " priest" added three plagues? Who, what, where, when, and why?

Just to be clear, by "priest" Semiopen was referring to what is commonly called the "

Priestly source" in all scholarly analyses of the pentateuch since Wellhausen. Far from only heaven knowing where the "outlandish idea" came from, if Duvduv opened a scholarly book on the subject he might find out for himself and not seem so totally oblivious to pentateuch scholarship.

Cheerful Charlie · 05-29-2013, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I will know not toseek dialogue with you, Semiopen, on these issues. You aren't the slightest bit interested in discussing any issue related to 2000 years of commentary from th Jewish sources. Only heaven knows whereyou come up with outlandish ideas. A " priest" added three plagues? Who, what, where, when, and why?

2000 years of commentary on a myth doesn't make a myth real.

Sounds like the Christian arguments from an a-priori assumption of biblical truth. It is true because I already know it to be true, hence no need to present an argument and evidence of truth.

Bitterly arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin does not establish that the angels in question exist.

Cheerful Charlie

Cheerful Charlie · 05-29-2013, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I will know not toseek dialogue with you, Semiopen, on these issues. You aren't the slightest bit interested in discussing any issue related to 2000 years of commentary from th Jewish sources. Only heaven knows whereyou come up with outlandish ideas. A " priest" added three plagues? Who, what, where, when, and why?

Wilhelm Martin Leberecht de Wette. Some of us are quite familiar with the line by line analysis of the Bible by scholars starting with de Witte that have indeed analyzed the differences and details of the bible stories that demonstrate multiple authorsship, changes, additions et al, since the 1700's. Hard nosed scholarship.

Cheerful Charlie

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05-28-2013, 06:17 PM	#283
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	I will know not toseek dialogue with you, Semiopen, on these issues. You aren't the slightest bit interested in discussing any issue related to 2000 years of commentary from th Jewish sources. Only heaven knows whereyou come up with outlandish ideas. A " priest" added three plagues? Who, what, where, when, and why?

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