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Old 05-23-2013, 12:50 PM   #11
Clivedurdle
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Freke and Gandy's view is that a Christianity that just gets on with a mythical Christ at the get go would be more authentic, enjoyable and would be popular, so I am not sure this discussion is about destroying Christianity, or European v American perspectives.

Something that actually encouraged us to get on with each other could be very valuable.
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Old 05-23-2013, 01:59 PM   #12
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Personally, I agree that many of the ethical, "humanistic" ideals of the Jesus of the gospels are worth striving for. And I know there are a million different Christianities, some emphazising Jesus' ethical teachings, some the salvation aspect, some the eschatological aspect, etc. But a Christianity with a MJ is not a Christianity. It may be a philosophy based on Christianity or a religion based on it, but it can never be Christianity. You cant have a Christian faith without HJ, then it simply isn't Christian.
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:24 PM   #13
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Personally, I agree that many of the ethical, "humanistic" ideals of the Jesus of the gospels are worth striving for. And I know there are a million different Christianities, some emphazising Jesus' ethical teachings, some the salvation aspect, some the eschatological aspect, etc. But a Christianity with a MJ is not a Christianity. It may be a philosophy based on Christianity or a religion based on it, but it can never be Christianity. You cant have a Christian faith without HJ, then it simply isn't Christian.
The Jesus cult did not know of an actual Jesus. The Jesus of the Jesus cult was always a Jesus of FAITH--ONLY BELIEF was required NOT history.

Examine the NT Canon and you will see that NO author of the NT ADMITTED that they became a Christian after personally interacting with Jesus.

The Pauline writer showed no regret that he did not see an actual Jesus but was seemed happy to write that he met a non-historical Jesus--one who was resurrected.
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:55 PM   #14
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But otherwise, the issue raises an amount of emotion that seems totally out of proportion to the importance of the issue.

For a start is it possible to objectively analyse this range of emotions?


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Old 05-23-2013, 08:42 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Cesc View Post
Personally, I agree that many of the ethical, "humanistic" ideals of the Jesus of the gospels are worth striving for. And I know there are a million different Christianities, some emphazising Jesus' ethical teachings, some the salvation aspect, some the eschatological aspect, etc. But a Christianity with a MJ is not a Christianity. It may be a philosophy based on Christianity or a religion based on it, but it can never be Christianity. You cant have a Christian faith without HJ, then it simply isn't Christian.
Why not? What element or essence is missing without HJ?

Just curious....
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:15 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesc View Post
You cant have a Christian faith without HJ, then it simply isn't Christian.
Why not? What element or essence is missing without HJ?

Just curious....

Historical integrity ?






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Old 05-23-2013, 11:50 PM   #17
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Guys be patient with me now. The following is not a derail.

the reason that the HJ version got adopted by Constantine
was that it worked most effective to get loyal supporters.

Same consideration that the Fundamentalists in US took
when they created Fundamentalism and which we now see
as the dominating way to be religious in US and which has
political similar movements both in Jewish such fundamentalism
and Islamist such fundamentalism. They may be only some 10 to 20 %
in actual numbers but they drive the moderates to keep a low profile.

It is the same social mechanism that makes Equity Feminist giving in
to Radical Feminism which also is fundamentalistic and literal and also
the Atheist Plus movement that also is using the same "You are either with us
or against us" tactics of shunning those that not 100% agree to the dogmas.

and that is what did happen way back in time. Only those that believed
in the HJ survived the fight for whom to support politically.

Most likely for that is how most people function. Even atheists.
The majority of activist atheists prefer a God that is a real supernatural God
and each time one give them an imaginary fictional god that only exist as ideas
then they bark loud and say that is a false god that makes one atheist and not a believer.

exact same mechanism. To want something that really exist and not just a myth
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Old 05-24-2013, 12:44 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesc View Post
Personally, I agree that many of the ethical, "humanistic" ideals of the Jesus of the gospels are worth striving for. And I know there are a million different Christianities, some emphazising Jesus' ethical teachings, some the salvation aspect, some the eschatological aspect, etc. But a Christianity with a MJ is not a Christianity. It may be a philosophy based on Christianity or a religion based on it, but it can never be Christianity. You cant have a Christian faith without HJ, then it simply isn't Christian.
Why not? What element or essence is missing without HJ?

Just curious....
If God didn't save the world through the HJ at some or other point in history, then God didn't save the world. Accordingly that's not Christianity.
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Old 05-24-2013, 05:02 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horatio Parker View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesc View Post
Personally, I agree that many of the ethical, "humanistic" ideals of the Jesus of the gospels are worth striving for. And I know there are a million different Christianities, some emphazising Jesus' ethical teachings, some the salvation aspect, some the eschatological aspect, etc. But a Christianity with a MJ is not a Christianity. It may be a philosophy based on Christianity or a religion based on it, but it can never be Christianity. You cant have a Christian faith without HJ, then it simply isn't Christian.
Why not? What element or essence is missing without HJ?

Just curious....
If God didn't save the world through the HJ at some or other point in history, then God didn't save the world. Accordingly that's not Christianity.
The notion of a HJ did not exist before the emergence of the idea probably not more than two centuries ago. I gather you might then run with a notion of a figure perceived to have been part of the mundane world.

At what point in the evolution of that which became christianity did that become doctrinal?
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Old 05-24-2013, 05:11 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by wordy View Post
Guys be patient with me now. The following is not a derail.

the reason that the HJ version got adopted by Constantine
was that it worked most effective to get loyal supporters.

Same consideration that the Fundamentalists in US took
when they created Fundamentalism and which we now see
as the dominating way to be religious in US and which has
political similar movements both in Jewish such fundamentalism
and Islamist such fundamentalism. They may be only some 10 to 20 %
in actual numbers but they drive the moderates to keep a low profile.

It is the same social mechanism that makes Equity Feminist giving in
to Radical Feminism which also is fundamentalistic and literal and also
the Atheist Plus movement that also is using the same "You are either with us
or against us" tactics of shunning those that not 100% agree to the dogmas.

and that is what did happen way back in time. Only those that believed
in the HJ survived the fight for whom to support politically.

Most likely for that is how most people function. Even atheists.
The majority of activist atheists prefer a God that is a real supernatural God
and each time one give them an imaginary fictional god that only exist as ideas
then they bark loud and say that is a false god that makes one atheist and not a believer.

exact same mechanism. To want something that really exist and not just a myth
Your post show the massive confusion in the HJ/MJ argument.

The Jesus of the Bible is NOT HJ but Jesus of FAITH and that is precisely why there is an ON-GOING QUEST for an Historical Jesus.

The NT Jesus was regarded as a character of FAITH --NOT of history.

Examine the NT.

Does it not say that Jesus was born of a Ghost? See gMatthew and gLuke

Does it not say Jesus was a Transfiguring Sea Water Walker? See gMark

Does it not say that Jesus was God the Creator. See gJohn.

Does it not say that Jesus ascended in a cloud. See Acts

Does it not say that Jesus was resurrected after he died. See 1 Corinthians.

NT Jesus was A MYTH--A BELIEF--A Jesus of Faith.

There most likely was never any belief in an historical Jesus.
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