Freethought & Rationalism Archive

outhouse · 06-14-2013, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

Your argument makes no sense.

I agree.

Quote:

Paul persecuted the church of God and the churches in Christ not the followers of the Jesus cult

Yet this makes no sense. And is factually wrong.

In Pauls time there were no churches. He taught to houses, "pater familias"

Thus he persecuted the followers

Huon · 06-14-2013, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Paul PERSECUTED the Churches in Christ of Judea.

Paul could NOT have been both a Persecutor and the originator of the Churches in Christ of Judea.

What are the proofs, outside the NT, that Paul PERSECUTED the Churches in Christ of Judea?

Oh, the author says : "I lie not" (which, for me, could be a defensive reply to somebody who called him a liar... and knew what he said.)

A "normal" guy who becomes a Christian is not so interesting. He goes from bona fide ignorance to truth.
A "persecutor" goes from spitefulness to truth, which is a much longer travel, and then, much more valuable.

Selsaral · 06-14-2013, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Well, what really is your objective? You knew in advance that your claims are not in keeping with the purpose of the thread.

Nothing sinister. I have a hard time seeing how it could have started and taken hold among Jews if it wasn't based on some real events about one real Jewish person, but I am interested to know what those who don't agree have to say.

IHMO, I find it incredibly easy to believe. Billions of people all over the world believe in these religions today with the actual evidence thousands of years removed. They believe without any evidence.

Looking around at all of the religions and beliefs in the world, from Nessie to Bigfoot to whatever....people don't need no stinkin' evidence or 'actual events'.

maryhelena · 06-14-2013, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Paul PERSECUTED the Churches in Christ of Judea.

Paul could NOT have been both a Persecutor and the originator of the Churches in Christ of Judea.

What are the proofs, outside the NT, that Paul PERSECUTED the Churches in Christ of Judea?

And the evidence that 'Paul' was a flesh and blood figure is??

The NT story is just that - a story. A story about early christian origins. An origin story. Debating, arguing, over the story, is illogical. The story is what it is. What the character of Paul says and does is part of that origin story. Reading that story back to front, which seems to be the method of some mythicists, is to corrupt the story; it is to make the story nonsensical, illogical and thus hinders the search for early christian origins.

Chili · 06-14-2013, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

Your argument makes no sense. Paul persecuted the church of God and the churches in Christ not the followers of the Jesus cult

Nice point you make as these two are opposite and one cannot persecute the the Jesus cult as cult and be redeemed by it yourself.

And of course Paul did not destroy the churches of Christ but just his own faith in them, as Jesus himself did as Jew or he would not have been Christian then.

It just shows that Christian [tm] is the end of religion for all.

jdboy · 06-14-2013, 01:06 PM

As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

— Acts 9:3–9, NIV

Jesus states Paul is persecuting him not churches of God or churches in Christ. The distinction is made that Paul persecuted Jesus and also churches of GOD and Christ.
In 1st ce if you were in Christ that meant you followed the Jesus cult?

Chili · 06-14-2013, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

What are the proofs, outside the NT, that Paul PERSECUTED the Churches in Christ of Judea?

Oh, the author says : "I lie not" (which, for me, could be a defensive reply to somebody who called him a liar... and knew what he said.)

A "normal" guy who becomes a Christian is not so interesting. He goes from bona fide ignorance to truth.
A "persecutor" goes from spitefulness to truth, which is a much longer travel, and then, much more valuable.

This may just mean that Paul put his own religion to the test, as if raising the ax so that faith may be brought to understanding in him and only for him.

TedM · 06-14-2013, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selsaral

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Well, what really is your objective? You knew in advance that your claims are not in keeping with the purpose of the thread.

Nothing sinister. I have a hard time seeing how it could have started and taken hold among Jews if it wasn't based on some real events about one real Jewish person, but I am interested to know what those who don't agree have to say.

IHMO, I find it incredibly easy to believe. Billions of people all over the world believe in these religions today with the actual evidence thousands of years removed. They believe without any evidence.

Looking around at all of the religions and beliefs in the world, from Nessie to Bigfoot to whatever....people don't need no stinkin' evidence or 'actual events'.

I think there is a big difference between saying that people don't need evidence for something that they believe happened 2000 years ago and something that happened 2 days ago. Those that believe now assume there was plenty of evidence 2000 years ago because the religion is based on historical claims/writings. No, they don't require that evidence themselves but that doesn't mean they don't require it of their predecessors in belief 2000 years ago. The widely held belief in 12 disciples, all martyred for their faith, and rapid spread of Christianity, to most people is a FACT beyond dispute. Those that hear otherwise may reject their faith. So they THINK they are well-informed and assume those living 2000 years ago were even more -- greatly more informed.

Those that believe now may have no inclination to believe modern day claims with little evidence because there is a big difference between FAITH in the winning HISTORICAL accounts and FAITH in MODERN CLAIMS that don't match ones world-experience. It's (I think) a difference between having faith in HUMANITY as a group (the faith that took over based on 'many' accounts) verses faith in a few individual humans (ie the bigfoot crowd).

Perhaps the faith began with the 'bigfoot' crowd but don't tell any modern day Christians that! They won't believe you because they don't see today's 'bigfoot' crowd growing or winning out, so why should they have won out 2000 years ago?

Clivedurdle · 06-14-2013, 01:51 PM

Quote:

TYPHON or TYPHOEUS (Tuphaôn, Tuphôeus, Tuphôs), a monster of the primitive world, is described sometimes as a destructive hurricane, and sometimes as a fire-breathing giant. According to Homer (Il. ii. 782; comp. Strab. xiii. p. 929) he was concealed in the country of the Arimi in the earth, which was lashed by Zeus with flashes of lightning. In Hesiod Typhaon and Typhoeus are two distinct beings. Typhaon there is a son of Typhoeus (Theog. 869), and a fearful hurricane, who by Echidna became the father of the dog Orthus, Cerberus, the Lernaean hydra, Chimaera, and the Sphynx. (Theog. 306; comp. Apollod. ii. 3. § 1, iii. 5. § 8.) Notwithstanding the confusion of the two beings in later writers, the original meaning of Typhaon was preserved in ordinary life. (Aristoph. Ran. 845; Plin. H. N. ii. 48.) Typhoeus, on the other hand, is described as the youngest son of Tartarus and Gaea, or of Hera alone, because she was indignant at Zeus having given birth to Athena. Typhoeus is described as a monster with a hundred heads, fearful eyes, and terrible voices (Pind. Pyth. i. 31, viii. 21, Ol. iv. 12); he wanted to acquire the sovereignty of gods and men, but was subdued, after a fearful struggle, by Zeus, with a thunderbolt. (Hes. Theog. 821, &c.) He begot the winds, whence he is also called the father of the Harpies (Val. Flacc. iv. 428), but the beneficent winds Notus, Boreas, Argestes, and Zephyrus, were not his sons. (Hes. Theog. 869, &c.) Aeschylus and Pindar describe him as living in a Cilician cave. (Pind. Pyth. viii. 21; comp. the different ideas in Apollon. Rhod. ii. 1210, &c., and Herod. iii. 5.) He is further said to have at one time been engaged in a struggle with all the immortals, and to have been killed by Zeus with a flash of lightning; he was buried in Tartarus under Mount Aetna, the workshop of Hephaestus. (Ov. Her. xv. 11, Fast. iv. 491; Aeschyl. Prom. 351, &c.; Pind. Pyth. i. 29, &c.) The later poets frequently connect Typhoeus with Egypt, and the gods, it is said, when unable to hold out against him, fled to Egypt, where, from fear, they metamorphosed themselves into animals, with the exception of Zeus and Athena. (Anton. Lib. 28 ; Hygin. Poet. Astr. ii. 28; Ov. Met. v. 321, &c. ; comp. Apollod. i. 6. § 3; Ov. Fast. ii. 461; Horat. Carm. iii. 4. 53.)

http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/Typhoeus.html

TedM · 06-14-2013, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

TYPHON or TYPHOEUS (Tuphaôn, Tuphôeus, Tuphôs), a monster of the primitive world, is described sometimes as a destructive hurricane, and sometimes as a fire-breathing giant. According to Homer (Il. ii. 782; comp. Strab. xiii. p. 929) he was concealed in the country of the Arimi in the earth, which was lashed by Zeus with flashes of lightning. In Hesiod Typhaon and Typhoeus are two distinct beings. Typhaon there is a son of Typhoeus (Theog. 869), and a fearful hurricane, who by Echidna became the father of the dog Orthus, Cerberus, the Lernaean hydra, Chimaera, and the Sphynx. (Theog. 306; comp. Apollod. ii. 3. § 1, iii. 5. § 8.) Notwithstanding the confusion of the two beings in later writers, the original meaning of Typhaon was preserved in ordinary life. (Aristoph. Ran. 845; Plin. H. N. ii. 48.) Typhoeus, on the other hand, is described as the youngest son of Tartarus and Gaea, or of Hera alone, because she was indignant at Zeus having given birth to Athena. Typhoeus is described as a monster with a hundred heads, fearful eyes, and terrible voices (Pind. Pyth. i. 31, viii. 21, Ol. iv. 12); he wanted to acquire the sovereignty of gods and men, but was subdued, after a fearful struggle, by Zeus, with a thunderbolt. (Hes. Theog. 821, &c.) He begot the winds, whence he is also called the father of the Harpies (Val. Flacc. iv. 428), but the beneficent winds Notus, Boreas, Argestes, and Zephyrus, were not his sons. (Hes. Theog. 869, &c.) Aeschylus and Pindar describe him as living in a Cilician cave. (Pind. Pyth. viii. 21; comp. the different ideas in Apollon. Rhod. ii. 1210, &c., and Herod. iii. 5.) He is further said to have at one time been engaged in a struggle with all the immortals, and to have been killed by Zeus with a flash of lightning; he was buried in Tartarus under Mount Aetna, the workshop of Hephaestus. (Ov. Her. xv. 11, Fast. iv. 491; Aeschyl. Prom. 351, &c.; Pind. Pyth. i. 29, &c.) The later poets frequently connect Typhoeus with Egypt, and the gods, it is said, when unable to hold out against him, fled to Egypt, where, from fear, they metamorphosed themselves into animals, with the exception of Zeus and Athena. (Anton. Lib. 28 ; Hygin. Poet. Astr. ii. 28; Ov. Met. v. 321, &c. ; comp. Apollod. i. 6. § 3; Ov. Fast. ii. 461; Horat. Carm. iii. 4. 53.)

http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/Typhoeus.html

That bears little resemblance to the portrayal of Jesus and Christians in the NT, so I'm missing your point. Gotta run..

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06-14-2013, 01:06 PM	#116
jdboy Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: NW United States Posts: 155	As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything. — Acts 9:3–9, NIV Jesus states Paul is persecuting him not churches of God or churches in Christ. The distinction is made that Paul persecuted Jesus and also churches of GOD and Christ. In 1st ce if you were in Christ that meant you followed the Jesus cult?

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