Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Grog · 08-10-2013, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Philo's use of the term "Logos" was NOT part of the early evolution of the Jesus story.

There is NOTHING of the "Logos" or NO reference to Jesus as the Logos in gMark.

Jesus as The Logos is DIRECTLY found in the LATER Gospel of gJohn.

In fact, Jesus is immediately introduced as the Logos in the very first verse of gJohn.

In gMark, it is AFTER the Baptism by John that the Jesus character began to act or display his Divine characteristics and there is no indication that the Markan Jesus was the Logos and God the Creator.

The earliest stories of Jesus, the Synoptics, show that Jesus as the Logos was a Later invention in the evolution of Jesus belief.

Can you trace this hypothesis of the synthesis of Jesus belief with Logos belief, flesh it out a bit more (no pun intended).

Grog · 08-10-2013, 05:59 PM

The Septuagint refers to Christ in the Book of Amos (4:13):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amos

12 Therefore thus will I do to thee, O Israel: nay because I will do thus to thee, prepare to call on thy God, O Israel. 13 For, behold, I am he that strengthens the thunder, and creates the wind, and proclaims to men his Christ, forming the morning and the darkness, and mounting on the high places of the earth, The Lord God Almighty is his name.

I would like to continue to explore the evolution of the idea of a spiritual messiah that developed in the pre-Christian Herodian period. I don't have a lot of time, so this might be considered a note to self.

Robert Tulip · 08-10-2013, 08:02 PM

One useful area for memetic analysis is Paul's implied assertion that Moses knew of Christ. I Corinthians 10:4 says the Jews in the Exodus "drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."

Moses built this 'rock of Christ' with a magic pole, the staff he used to obtain living water and to do other magic tricks. The magic deepens with the staff having the same form as his symbol of the snake on a pole, as attested by John 3:14 as a symbol of Christ and eternal life. But this snake stick of Moses was later destroyed by King Josiah, as part of his removal of naturalism from Judaism.

The New Testament depiction of Christ is to some extent a memetic marriage between the esoteric snake on a pole venerated as a healing symbol by Moses, and seen also in the Garden of Eden, and the exoteric tradition of God as purely supernatural and transcendent.

Robert Tulip · 08-10-2013, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grog

The Septuagint refers to Christ in the Book of Amos (4:13):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amos

12 Therefore thus will I do to thee, O Israel: nay because I will do thus to thee, prepare to call on thy God, O Israel. 13 For, behold, I am he that strengthens the thunder, and creates the wind, and proclaims to men his Christ, forming the morning and the darkness, and mounting on the high places of the earth, The Lord God Almighty is his name.

I would like to continue to explore the evolution of the idea of a spiritual messiah that developed in the pre-Christian Herodian period. I don't have a lot of time, so this might be considered a note to self.

Thanks Grog, there are many weighty nuggets in Amos, especially the celebrated 'let justice roll' of 5:25 and the hidden mention of Jupiter and Saturn that follows it in 5:26.

The word from Amos 4:13 that you have translated "Christ" is given in the interlinear direct translation as "thoughts". http://www.askelm.com/news/n130201.pdf explains that the Septuagint mistranslated the Hebrew 'thought' as 'Christ'.

This itself is a fascinating memetic example of the evolving views of Christ as demiurge. God's thoughts, the breath of spirit, are revealed in the eternal wisdom of the cosmos, the Logos. This mediator between man and God is seen as the presence of the awesome divine in the world. The demiurge itself has quite a conceptual history, including with Gnostic ideas that this world is the creation of an evil being, and cannot be the result of the activity of the one true God. But Christianity says God made the world, and redeems it through the suffering expiation of Christ, whose activity is interpreted, for example in Colossians 1:15-20, in rather demiurgic terms, similar to Plato's view in Timaeus describing "the Demiurge as unreservedly benevolent, and hence desirous of a world as good as possible. The world remains imperfect, however, because the Demiurge created the world out of a chaotic, indeterminate non-being."

aa5874 · 08-11-2013, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grog

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Philo's use of the term "Logos" was NOT part of the early evolution of the Jesus story.

There is NOTHING of the "Logos" or NO reference to Jesus as the Logos in gMark.

Jesus as The Logos is DIRECTLY found in the LATER Gospel of gJohn.

In fact, Jesus is immediately introduced as the Logos in the very first verse of gJohn.

In gMark, it is AFTER the Baptism by John that the Jesus character began to act or display his Divine characteristics and there is no indication that the Markan Jesus was the Logos and God the Creator.

The earliest stories of Jesus, the Synoptics, show that Jesus as the Logos was a Later invention in the evolution of Jesus belief.

Can you trace this hypothesis of the synthesis of Jesus belief with Logos belief, flesh it out a bit more (no pun intended).

We have gJohn.

John 1

Quote:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made .

We have writings attributed to Justin and Hippolytus composed in the mid 2nd century or later.

Justin's First Apology 5

Quote:

For not only among the Greeks did reason (Logos) prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the Barbarians were they condemned by Reason (or the Word, the Logos) Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ.

Hippolytus' Refutation Against all Heresies" 10

Quote:

The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God.

The earliest stories of Jesus, gMark, and gMatthew do not claim Jesus was the Logos, God the Creator and equal to God.

It is in the Later gJohn, and the Pauline Corpus.

Philippians 2:6 KJV

Quote:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God

Colossians 1

Quote:

16 For by him were all things created , that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

Grog · 08-11-2013, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Whether or not the Apocalypse of Adam is influenced by Christianity is unclear.

It is, however, unlikely to be earlier than Christianity. The passage about the eighth kingdom seems to refer to the myths about Mithras and his birth from a rock.

Quote:

And the eighth kingdom says of him that a cloud came upon the earth and enveloped a rock. He came from it. The angels who were above the cloud nourished him. He received glory and power there. And thus he came to the water.

This familiarity with Mithraism is unlikely before the very late 1st century CE at the earliest.

Andrew Criddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Whether or not the Apocalypse of Adam is influenced by Christianity is unclear.

It is, however, unlikely to be earlier than Christianity. The passage about the eighth kingdom seems to refer to the myths about Mithras and his birth from a rock.

Quote:

And the eighth kingdom says of him that a cloud came upon the earth and enveloped a rock. He came from it. The angels who were above the cloud nourished him. He received glory and power there. And thus he came to the water.

This familiarity with Mithraism is unlikely before the very late 1st century CE at the earliest.

Andrew Criddle

From the Odes of Solomon 11.5:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odes

And I was established upon the rock of truth, where He had set me.
6. And speaking waters touched my lips from the fountain of the Lord generously.
7. And so I drank and became intoxicated, from the living water that does not die.

The Odes also late 1st Century probably, don't seem to have any mithraic elements. I think it is possible for the rock imagery to not be dependent on Mithraism.

From Numbers 20:8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numbers

8 “Take the rod; and you and your brother Aaron assemble the congregation and speak to the rock before their eyes, that it may yield its water. You shall thus bring forth water for them out of the rock and let the congregation and their beasts drink.”

Grog · 08-11-2013, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grog

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Whether or not the Apocalypse of Adam is influenced by Christianity is unclear.

It is, however, unlikely to be earlier than Christianity. The passage about the eighth kingdom seems to refer to the myths about Mithras and his birth from a rock.
This familiarity with Mithraism is unlikely before the very late 1st century CE at the earliest.

Andrew Criddle

From the Odes of Solomon 11.5:

The Odes also late 1st Century probably, don't seem to have any mithraic elements. I think it is possible for the rock imagery to not be dependent on Mithraism.

From Numbers 20:8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numbers

8 “Take the rod; and you and your brother Aaron assemble the congregation and speak to the rock before their eyes, that it may yield its water. You shall thus bring forth water for them out of the rock and let the congregation and their beasts drink.”

I think the water and rock imagery represents "wisdom" or the "word" flowing from the rock of Moses. The imagery is from Judaism, not Mithraism.

andrewcriddle · 08-11-2013, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grog

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Whether or not the Apocalypse of Adam is influenced by Christianity is unclear.

It is, however, unlikely to be earlier than Christianity. The passage about the eighth kingdom seems to refer to the myths about Mithras and his birth from a rock.

Quote:

And the eighth kingdom says of him that a cloud came upon the earth and enveloped a rock. He came from it. The angels who were above the cloud nourished him. He received glory and power there. And thus he came to the water.

This familiarity with Mithraism is unlikely before the very late 1st century CE at the earliest.

Andrew Criddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Whether or not the Apocalypse of Adam is influenced by Christianity is unclear.

It is, however, unlikely to be earlier than Christianity. The passage about the eighth kingdom seems to refer to the myths about Mithras and his birth from a rock.

Quote:

And the eighth kingdom says of him that a cloud came upon the earth and enveloped a rock. He came from it. The angels who were above the cloud nourished him. He received glory and power there. And thus he came to the water.

This familiarity with Mithraism is unlikely before the very late 1st century CE at the earliest.

Andrew Criddle

From the Odes of Solomon 11.5:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odes

And I was established upon the rock of truth, where He had set me.
6. And speaking waters touched my lips from the fountain of the Lord generously.
7. And so I drank and became intoxicated, from the living water that does not die.

The Odes also late 1st Century probably, don't seem to have any mithraic elements. I think it is possible for the rock imagery to not be dependent on Mithraism.

From Numbers 20:8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numbers

8 “Take the rod; and you and your brother Aaron assemble the congregation and speak to the rock before their eyes, that it may yield its water. You shall thus bring forth water for them out of the rock and let the congregation and their beasts drink.”

I would prefer myself to date the Odes of Solomon to the 2nd century CE, but I agree that there is no evidence of mithraic elements in this work.

The reason why I think the Apocalypse of Adam is influenced by the Mithras cult is that it seems to have the saviour figure himself being born from a rock.

I agree that references to water (physical and/or spiritual) proceeding from a rock are widespread in Jewish and Christian writings, but the Apocalypse of Adam seems to be saying something rather different.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle · 08-11-2013, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grog

I think the water and rock imagery represents "wisdom" or the "word" flowing from the rock of Moses. The imagery is from Judaism, not Mithraism.

A lot of the other imagery from the kingdoms passages in the Apocalypse of Adam seems pagan rather than Jewish. (Some is clealy Jewish but not IMO most.)

Andrew Criddle

DCHindley · 08-11-2013, 03:31 PM

Perhaps the author of the Apocalypse of Adam was influenced by Chaldean Oracles-like attempts to introduce theurgy into Neo-Platonism?

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grog

I think the water and rock imagery represents "wisdom" or the "word" flowing from the rock of Moses. The imagery is from Judaism, not Mithraism.

A lot of the other imagery from the kingdoms passages in the Apocalypse of Adam seems pagan rather than Jewish. (Some is clealy Jewish but not IMO most.)

Andrew Criddle

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08-10-2013, 08:02 PM	#33
Robert Tulip Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 635	One useful area for memetic analysis is Paul's implied assertion that Moses knew of Christ. I Corinthians 10:4 says the Jews in the Exodus "drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ." Moses built this 'rock of Christ' with a magic pole, the staff he used to obtain living water and to do other magic tricks. The magic deepens with the staff having the same form as his symbol of the snake on a pole, as attested by John 3:14 as a symbol of Christ and eternal life. But this snake stick of Moses was later destroyed by King Josiah, as part of his removal of naturalism from Judaism. The New Testament depiction of Christ is to some extent a memetic marriage between the esoteric snake on a pole venerated as a healing symbol by Moses, and seen also in the Garden of Eden, and the exoteric tradition of God as purely supernatural and transcendent.

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