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Old 06-12-2013, 11:58 PM   #51
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I can form an opinion of what started the Jesus story based on the evidence from antiquity.

It was the Fall of the Temple and the Words of the Lord in the books of the Prophets.

Examine Tertullian's "Against the Jews"
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...Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation. For Daniel says, that “both the holy city and the holy place are exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin.”

And so the times of the coming Christ, the Leader, must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, and of competent signs and operations of His. Which matters we prove, again, on the ground of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen.

In such wise, therefore, did Daniel predict concerning Him, as to show both when and in what time He was to set the nations free; and how, after the passion of the Christ, that city had to be exterminated.
It is extremely important to understand what Tertullian wrote--it was PREDICTED by Daniel ..."After the Passion of Christ, the City had to be exterminated"

Once the Temple Fell and Jerusalem was devastated it was claimed that Jesus did already come.

There was no need for an actual Jesus Christ but the Temple must first Fall and the City made desolate.

Essentially, after the Temple Fell a story was manufactured to match the supposed prophecies in the books of the Prophets.

These stories about a Crucified Christ based on the Fall of the Temple and supposed Prophecies were composed sometime after the writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius or after c 115 CE.
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:00 AM   #52
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The Greek Myths meet the Jewish Myths in an oriental cult in a cave somewhere, possibly breathing in volcanic fumes. Watching the dawn was a critical part of the ceremonies.

The rituals are first, the stories were written later to explain the rituals. Eating and drinking communally, a once for all sacrifice instead of regularly sacrificing, the Greek idea of priesthood of all believers, baptism to enter the cult, eating and drinking and singing and ecstasy all night long culminating in leaving the cave at dawn.
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:18 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by aa5874 View Post
I can form an opinion of what started the Jesus story based on the evidence from antiquity.

It was the Fall of the Temple and the Words of the Lord in the books of the Prophets.

Examine Tertullian's "Against the Jews"
Quote:
...Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation. For Daniel says, that “both the holy city and the holy place are exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin.”

And so the times of the coming Christ, the Leader, must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, and of competent signs and operations of His. Which matters we prove, again, on the ground of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen.

In such wise, therefore, did Daniel predict concerning Him, as to show both when and in what time He was to set the nations free; and how, after the passion of the Christ, that city had to be exterminated.
It is extremely important to understand what Tertullian wrote--it was PREDICTED by Daniel ..."After the Passion of Christ, the City had to be exterminated"

Once the Temple Fell and Jerusalem was devastated it was claimed that Jesus did already come.

There was no need for an actual Jesus Christ but the Temple must first Fall and the City made desolate.

Essentially, after the Temple Fell a story was manufactured to match the supposed prophecies in the books of the Prophets.

These stories about a Crucified Christ based on the Fall of the Temple and supposed Prophecies were composed sometime after the writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius or after c 115 CE.
How did the fall of the Temple and the words in the books of the Prophets start a story that has things in it that are not in the books of the Prophets, and aren't the fall of the Temple either? Who manufactured the story, and why? And how did a manufactured story start Christianity?
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:20 AM   #54
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Christianity didn't take hold in Judaism. It failed there.
According to Paul's writings, and Acts, many Jews converted. I'm wondering what it is they were responding to. Paul acknowledged that the hub of Christianity was in Jerusalem. What was being preached and why would a Jew believe it?
Where does Paul say that many Jews converted? Does Paul say that the hub of "Christianity" was in Jerusalem? I don't think so - just that there was a Jerusalem Church of some sort that he had some major disagreements with.

What exactly does Acts say? Acts 2 talks about tongues of fire and charismatic preaching, after which some (but not all Jews) were converted by Peter - but after that we don't hear about Jews being converted.

So we don't actually have firm evidence of Jews becoming "Christians." And the only evidence we have is that conversion works more or less as it does now - people are swept up in the emotion of a preacher's message, think they see miracles, or think they want to join in a movement that might be going someplace.
So who was that preacher, and what was that preacher's message?
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:30 AM   #55
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And btw, the op should be xianities.
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Old 06-13-2013, 01:53 AM   #56
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...How did the fall of the Temple and the words in the books of the Prophets start a story that has things in it that are not in the books of the Prophets, and aren't the fall of the Temple either? Who manufactured the story, and why? And how did a manufactured story start Christianity?
Again, which books are you referring to? Did you not read the books? Is it not stated in Tertullian's "AGainst the Jews" that Daniel predicted the Devastation of the Temple and the City?

Tertullian's "Against the Jews"
Quote:
...Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation.

For Daniel says, that “both the holy city and the holy place are exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin.”

...And so the times of the coming Christ, the Leader, must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, and of competent signs and operations of His. Which matters we prove, again, on the ground of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen.

In such wise, therefore, did Daniel predict concerning Him, as to show both when and in what time He was to set the nations free; and how, after the passion of the Christ, that city had to be exterminated.
Don't you see what is written? Don't you see that it is claimed Daniel predicted that both the Temple and the Holy City would be devastated by the Coming of the Lord?

Don't you know that Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius wrote about events at the time of the Fall of the Temple?

Please, be specific because you don't really seem to know what you are talking about.

Now, examine the writings of Justin he too would claim the Jews were suffering, their land made desolate and their cities burned because they killed the Just One.

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho
Quote:
.... you alone may suffer that which you now justly suffer; and that your land may be desolate, and your cities burned with fire; and that strangers may eat your fruit in your presence, and not one of you may go up to Jerusalem............... Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One, and His prophets before Him...
We know what started the Jesus story--- it was the Fall of the Temple, the desolation of Jerusalem and the Words of the Lord in the books of the Prophets.

The books of the Prophets are BOLTED to the story of Jesus and it is documented that the Jewish Temple did Fall and that the Jews suffered greatly at that time in the writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius.
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Old 06-13-2013, 03:19 AM   #57
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...How did the fall of the Temple and the words in the books of the Prophets start a story that has things in it that are not in the books of the Prophets, and aren't the fall of the Temple either? Who manufactured the story, and why? And how did a manufactured story start Christianity?
Again, which books are you referring to? Did you not read the books? Is it not stated in Tertullian's "AGainst the Jews" that Daniel predicted the Devastation of the Temple and the City?

Tertullian's "Against the Jews"
Quote:
...Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation.

For Daniel says, that “both the holy city and the holy place are exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin.”

...And so the times of the coming Christ, the Leader, must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, and of competent signs and operations of His. Which matters we prove, again, on the ground of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen.

In such wise, therefore, did Daniel predict concerning Him, as to show both when and in what time He was to set the nations free; and how, after the passion of the Christ, that city had to be exterminated.
Don't you see what is written? Don't you see that it is claimed Daniel predicted that both the Temple and the Holy City would be devastated by the Coming of the Lord?

Don't you know that Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius wrote about events at the time of the Fall of the Temple?

Please, be specific because you don't really seem to know what you are talking about.

Now, examine the writings of Justin he too would claim the Jews were suffering, their land made desolate and their cities burned because they killed the Just One.

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho
Quote:
.... you alone may suffer that which you now justly suffer; and that your land may be desolate, and your cities burned with fire; and that strangers may eat your fruit in your presence, and not one of you may go up to Jerusalem............... Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One, and His prophets before Him...
We know what started the Jesus story--- it was the Fall of the Temple, the desolation of Jerusalem and the Words of the Lord in the books of the Prophets.

The books of the Prophets are BOLTED to the story of Jesus and it is documented that the Jewish Temple did Fall and that the Jews suffered greatly at that time in the writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius.
Chapter 1 of Mark doesn't say anything about the fall of the Temple and doesn't come from any of the books you have just been talking about, so where does it come from?

Chapter 2 of Mark doesn't say anything about the fall of the Temple and doesn't come from any of the books you have just been talking about, so where does it come from?

Chapter 3 of Mark doesn't say anything about the fall of the Temple and doesn't come from any of the books you have just been talking about, so where does it come from?
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Old 06-13-2013, 04:21 AM   #58
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‘Tydeus' son Diomedes, the too high-hearted, stabbed me as I was carrying my own beloved son out of the fighting, Aineias, who beyond all else in the world is dear to me;
http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AphroditeMyths2.html
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Old 06-13-2013, 04:39 AM   #59
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What is a vision of a "Savior figure"? Can you flesh that out some, to give some color on what there was that required following? What need did it fulfill and how did the one(s) with the vision satisfy that need? What would they had to have said, for example?
I have no idea exactly what was seen because the original visions have been lost to history. Visions do not necessarily have to fulfill a need, many people have them, but not all acquire a following. That is more a matter of other features of the visionary -- persuasiveness, education, social networks, social context, etc.

I prefer to stay with the evidence we have that Earl has interpreted as showing that the early Christians did not know a human Jesus but instead worshiped a figure who had made a cosmic sacrifice in the heavens which had redeemed... well, then they argued about whether all men were redeemed, when redemption would occur, etc. Clearly the social process of working out what the vision and the social structures that grew up around it meant would go on until the present.

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Is there any historical evidence attesting to the existence of the visionary you're describing that is of a similar kind to historical evidence attesting to the existence of Hong Xiuquan?

Are claims by Hong Xiuquan that he had visions sufficient evidence to establish that he did have visions? and is there any evidence of the visionary you're describing claiming to have had visions?

Is there any evidence that Hong Xiuquan, or anybody else, got the whole text of a book out of visions?

If nobody asked what started Hong Xiuquan's visions, is that a reason why I shouldn't ask what started people's visions?
No, we have copious evidence on Hong. We know something about what the early Christian visionaries saw, but little about which one was first.

It is irrelevant whether Hong actually had visions (though I have no doubt he had some incredible experience) so long as he was able to persuade others that he did.

Since no one claims that the early Christians got the whole text of a book out of vision, I don't understand your questions.

It is not possible to know why people have visions. We don't have the ability to crack open the brain and look yet.

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Old 06-13-2013, 05:41 AM   #60
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Where does Paul say that many Jews converted? Does Paul say that the hub of "Christianity" was in Jerusalem? I don't think so - just that there was a Jerusalem Church of some sort that he had some major disagreements with.

What exactly does Acts say? Acts 2 talks about tongues of fire and charismatic preaching, after which some (but not all Jews) were converted by Peter - but after that we don't hear about Jews being converted.

So we don't actually have firm evidence of Jews becoming "Christians." And the only evidence we have is that conversion works more or less as it does now - people are swept up in the emotion of a preacher's message, think they see miracles, or think they want to join in a movement that might be going someplace.
So who was that preacher, and what was that preacher's message?
Who is not important. It wasn't a specific preacher, but "a" preacher. Does it matter if it was a Paul or an Apollos or a Cephas or any of the unnamed itinerant preachers the Didache cautions believers about? The message was the same, salvation, but the packaging was probably different, depending on the preacher and the moment in time.
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