FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Philosophy & Religious Studies > History of Abrahamic Religions & Related Texts
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 01:23 AM

Notices

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-29-2013, 10:27 AM   #301
semiopen
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Hillsborough, NJ
Posts: 3,551
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Sources, please. And define the word "massive" as you use it here. Are you admitting that there is massive evidence for leaving Egypt, which is the point at issue.

Or is your view based on the fallacy, "Absence of evidence is evidence of absence", modified here to be, "Absence of much current scholarship on the Hyksos is evidence there were no Hyksos and that all prior scholarship about the Hyksos is bogus." What about Manfred Bietak's archaeological digs?
Adam, if you are going to make some point about the Hyksos, why not just make it.

I mentioned Thompson's view here.

The history is obscure.

Simcha Jacobi had an infamous TV thing, tieing them to the Exodus that has been debunked

Debunking "The Exodus Decoded

This is just a random article.

John Van Seters also has some discussion of the Hyksos in Abraham in History and Tradition (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Anyway, I don't think there was a hardcore invasion of Egypt by the Hyksos nor a physical expulsion - like send them back to Palestine.

But whatever you are driving at is a mystery, are you just asking people to do research for you?
semiopen is offline  
Old 05-29-2013, 10:32 AM   #302
semiopen
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Hillsborough, NJ
Posts: 3,551
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duvduv View Post
This is an open forum. Please reread its FAQs unless you serve as moderator and have changed them. What is prohibited in this Forum is "evangelizing" and promoting one's own theology. If this were an issue for me in relation to my postings I think I would have heard of it by now.

I honestly do not know where you get your descriptions of me. I also think you should check up on the history of Jacob Frank. Beyond that you should probably relax a bit. You do not have to attack me personally as I do not attack you personally. It's called argumentum ad hominem.
The moderators give you amazing leeway. I can't explain it.

You also have a problem in that you don't read other posts. I've repeatedly suggested that you be barred.

The same problem is evident in the Black Madonna sub thread. You are not bothering to look at my links which show that the Black Madonna is different than Frank's daughter.

Finally, you continue your silly projecting of your faults on me.
semiopen is offline  
Old 05-29-2013, 11:42 AM   #303
Duvduv
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 4,095
Default

Semiopen, didn't any ever teach you civility and courtesy when you went to Hebrew School twenty years ago?? Not even Sherlock Holmes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by semiopen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duvduv View Post
This is an open forum. Please reread its FAQs unless you serve as moderator and have changed them. What is prohibited in this Forum is "evangelizing" and promoting one's own theology. If this were an issue for me in relation to my postings I think I would have heard of it by now.

I honestly do not know where you get your descriptions of me. I also think you should check up on the history of Jacob Frank. Beyond that you should probably relax a bit. You do not have to attack me personally as I do not attack you personally. It's called argumentum ad hominem.
The moderators give you amazing leeway. I can't explain it.

You also have a problem in that you don't read other posts. I've repeatedly suggested that you be barred.

The same problem is evident in the Black Madonna sub thread. You are not bothering to look at my links which show that the Black Madonna is different than Frank's daughter.

Finally, you continue your silly projecting of your faults on me.
Duvduv is offline  
Old 05-29-2013, 11:45 AM   #304
Sarpedon
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le
Posts: 8,446
Default

Sherlock Holmes went to Hebrew School twenty years ago?
Sarpedon is offline  
Old 05-29-2013, 11:45 AM   #305
Duvduv
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 4,095
Default

I don't really follow what you are saying. I expressed some exasperation about what I consider to be secular bigotry and arrogance, but that is not a violation of the FAQs. In fact I am careful to note my approach in comparison with that of several other posters.
I think you know what I believe about the Exodus, but unless you wish to turn this thread into a Yeshiva class reviewing a great deal of Jewish literature over many hundreds of years I suggest we not go there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve_bnk View Post
duvduv

Evangelizing is using a thread to promote a personal faih while not entering into debate, testifying to your faith is another word for it.

A Christian repeatedly saying Jesus saved him or Jesus is lord in response to questions would be evangelizing. It happens. A thread gets hijacked.

I don't see you as evangelizing, at leas not to any major degree. .If you get filled with the spirit and begin proclaiming the glories of David and Solomon to us, that would be evanegelizng...

'...Your personal insults (hysteria?) do nothing for your argument except to demonstrate the intolerance and bigotry of your branch of secularism. Is there such a thing as a secular Ku Klux Klan burning something on religious people's front yards?..'

Totally uncalled for and IMO a TOU violation. The forum has generally been pretty even handed to you. The op is about evidence fo Exodus, which you are unable to provide at least in any coherent way.

You have not refuted the basic objections based on logistcs alone.

That above is a typical angry kind of end game theist response when we collectively reuse to accept

1. Hand waving and generalizations for specific arguments.

2. A reliance on claiming directly or indirectly the bible by definition is truth. I win a-priori because the bible is true and god is real.


3. Inability to directly answer questions and refute objetions. I asked a number o times what is your belief in Exodus and why. Your reponse is asking what do I think about something else.

I suggest you take a little time and work up a coherent argument to support Exodus rather than calling us Nazis. I think calling people Nazis may be one of the TOU updates.

Baesd on the Exodus numbers, time span, and area what is your reponse to objections based on reosurces like food, sanitation, and water?
Duvduv is offline  
Old 05-29-2013, 12:10 PM   #306
semiopen
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Hillsborough, NJ
Posts: 3,551
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duvduv View Post
Semiopen, didn't any ever teach you civility and courtesy when you went to Hebrew School twenty years ago?? Not even Sherlock Holmes?
You started this diatribe when I mentioned that the Torah wasn't written by Moses.

I really don't recall being any nastier than I usually am in the last day or so.
semiopen is offline  
Old 05-29-2013, 01:05 PM   #307
Adam
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dixon CA
Posts: 1,150
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by semiopen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Sources, please. And define the word "massive" as you use it here. Are you admitting that there is massive evidence for leaving Egypt, which is the point at issue.

Or is your view based on the fallacy, "Absence of evidence is evidence of absence", modified here to be, "Absence of much current scholarship on the Hyksos is evidence there were no Hyksos and that all prior scholarship about the Hyksos is bogus." What about Manfred Bietak's archaeological digs?
Adam, if you are going to make some point about the Hyksos, why not just make it.

I mentioned Thompson's view here.

The history is obscure.

Simcha Jacobi had an infamous TV thing, tieing them to the Exodus that has been debunked

Debunking "The Exodus Decoded

This is just a random article.

John Van Seters also has some discussion of the Hyksos in Abraham in History and Tradition (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Anyway, I don't think there was a hardcore invasion of Egypt by the Hyksos nor a physical expulsion - like send them back to Palestine.

But whatever you are driving at is a mystery, are you just asking people to do research for you?
I did lots of research, but eventually had to set aside some pro-Exodus theories as by David Rohl (with his new chronology and small exodus in the Sinai) and Lennart Moeller (massive Exodus into Arabia). That seems to leave the Hyksos as the best refuge for salvaging some historicity for the Pentateuch.

I used to assume the old view, that the Hyksos were mighty Indo-European
conquerors. That's been debunked by John Van Seters, as you say, and he has a whole book about it
The Hyksos: A New Investigation (or via: amazon.co.uk)
that they were Semitic Amorites who infiltrated part of Egypt and took over in an internal coup. As Semites, they wouldn't necessarily take back lots of Egyptian culture with them if they wound up back in Canaan.
Adam is offline  
Old 05-29-2013, 01:34 PM   #308
semiopen
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Hillsborough, NJ
Posts: 3,551
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by semiopen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Sources, please. And define the word "massive" as you use it here. Are you admitting that there is massive evidence for leaving Egypt, which is the point at issue.

Or is your view based on the fallacy, "Absence of evidence is evidence of absence", modified here to be, "Absence of much current scholarship on the Hyksos is evidence there were no Hyksos and that all prior scholarship about the Hyksos is bogus." What about Manfred Bietak's archaeological digs?
Adam, if you are going to make some point about the Hyksos, why not just make it.

I mentioned Thompson's view here.

The history is obscure.

Simcha Jacobi had an infamous TV thing, tieing them to the Exodus that has been debunked

Debunking "The Exodus Decoded

This is just a random article.

John Van Seters also has some discussion of the Hyksos in Abraham in History and Tradition (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Anyway, I don't think there was a hardcore invasion of Egypt by the Hyksos nor a physical expulsion - like send them back to Palestine.

But whatever you are driving at is a mystery, are you just asking people to do research for you?
I did lots of research, but eventually had to set aside some pro-Exodus theories as by David Rohl (with his new chronology and small exodus in the Sinai) and Lennart Moeller (massive Exodus into Arabia). That seems to leave the Hyksos as the best refuge for salvaging some historicity for the Pentateuch.

I used to assume the old view, that the Hyksos were mighty Indo-European
conquerors. That's been debunked by John Van Seters, as you say, and he has a whole book about it
The Hyksos: A New Investigation (or via: amazon.co.uk)
that they were Semitic Amorites who infiltrated part of Egypt and took over in an internal coup. As Semites, they wouldn't necessarily take back lots of Egyptian culture with them if they wound up back in Canaan.
Thanks Adam.

I've been thinking about buying Van Seters Hyksos book, just not sure how much of a Hyksos expert I want to be. Van Seters Abraham book is available on Questia.

From what I can gather, there is a possibility that the Hyksos made a last stand of sorts at Sharuhen.

Quote:
Sharuhen was an ancient town in the Negev Desert. Following the expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt in the second half of the 16th century BCE, they fled to Sharuhen and fortified it. The armies of Pharaoh Ahmose I seized and razed the town after a three-year siege.
As usual there are two candidates for the site of this place, HaBesor_Stream or Tell el-Farah in the Sharuhen wiki, or Tall_al-Ajjul

For Tall al-Ajjul -

Quote:
Although the earliest remains on the site date back perhaps as far as 2100 bc, the town seems to have reached its zenith during the Middle Bronze Age (c. 2300–c. 1550 bc), especially during the 17th and 16th centuries, when it was probably controlled by the Hyksos (15th Dynasty) rulers of Egypt. Included in the remains of that period were a great Hyksos-style fosse (defense ditch), portions of several private dwellings, and a large building covering an area of about a half an acre. If, as seems probable, the building is to be identified as a palace, it is the largest palace of that period yet discovered in Palestine. The palace was succeeded by four other large buildings, the last of which probably dated from about 1200 bc.
In any case, it doesn't seem like much of an expulsion. Probably less than a hundred guys (just speculating). They don't seem to have found anything at either site suggesting a military operation. At least the places were occupied in the middle to late bronze age.
semiopen is offline  
Old 05-29-2013, 03:52 PM   #309
steve_bnk
Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 27,602
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duvduv View Post
I don't really follow what you are saying. I expressed some exasperation about what I consider to be secular bigotry and arrogance, but that is not a violation of the FAQs. In fact I am careful to note my approach in comparison with that of several other posters.
I think you know what I believe about the Exodus, but unless you wish to turn this thread into a Yeshiva class reviewing a great deal of Jewish literature over many hundreds of years I suggest we not go there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve_bnk View Post
duvduv

Evangelizing is using a thread to promote a personal faih while not entering into debate, testifying to your faith is another word for it.

A Christian repeatedly saying Jesus saved him or Jesus is lord in response to questions would be evangelizing. It happens. A thread gets hijacked.

I don't see you as evangelizing, at leas not to any major degree. .If you get filled with the spirit and begin proclaiming the glories of David and Solomon to us, that would be evanegelizng...

'...Your personal insults (hysteria?) do nothing for your argument except to demonstrate the intolerance and bigotry of your branch of secularism. Is there such a thing as a secular Ku Klux Klan burning something on religious people's front yards?..'

Totally uncalled for and IMO a TOU violation. The forum has generally been pretty even handed to you. The op is about evidence fo Exodus, which you are unable to provide at least in any coherent way.

You have not refuted the basic objections based on logistcs alone.

That above is a typical angry kind of end game theist response when we collectively reuse to accept

1. Hand waving and generalizations for specific arguments.

2. A reliance on claiming directly or indirectly the bible by definition is truth. I win a-priori because the bible is true and god is real.


3. Inability to directly answer questions and refute objetions. I asked a number o times what is your belief in Exodus and why. Your reponse is asking what do I think about something else.

I suggest you take a little time and work up a coherent argument to support Exodus rather than calling us Nazis. I think calling people Nazis may be one of the TOU updates.

Baesd on the Exodus numbers, time span, and area what is your reponse to objections based on reosurces like food, sanitation, and water?
I am sure you understand perfectly. Your diversions and attempts at deflections will not work around here.

Drop the personal commentary and stick to the op.

Answer my question. What do you present as a cogent rationale to support the Exodus story details which we have been brought into question regarding logistics.

No, I do not what yiu think. {Please connect the dlots pfr me.

Are you a biblical literalist? Could the Exodus details be wrong? Is it possible there was no Exodus? What is your position? Simple questions, no need for a dissertation on Jewish theology. We wnat to know what YOU think.

The problem all Abrahamic theists have is starting to admit possible error in scripture opens a Pandora's Box.

Us skeptics can always be wrong about anything, and we can live with that. All we demand is evidence over emotion. Show me how Exodus in the technology of the times how logistically Exodus could have happened.
steve_bnk is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:39 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.