Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 03-07-2013, 12:42 AM

Deut 32:17 Hebrew שדים 'shedim' (shed'eem) -terrible fearful powerful (spirit) ones.

Psalm 106:37 Hebrew שדים 'shedim' (shed'eem) -terrible fearful powerful (spirit) ones.

(The Divine title 'El Shaddai' is an amplified and first person possessive of shed or shadad)

The English connotation of the word 'demon' tends to by Christian tradition be perceived as entirely negative and generally an associative of evil, whereas the Hebrew and Greek terms are neutral as to a shed being either good or evil, just a (spirit) power that is to be feared -either by ones adversaries, or as a (spirit) power being brought to bear against one's self.

Isaiah 13:31 Hebrew שעירים 'sa'iyrim' (sa'ear'eem') from שער -wild hairy he-goats (in KJV 'satyrs')
The context of Isaiah 13:31 indicates these are just natural physical "wild beasts" not spiritual 'demons'.

The word שָׂעִיר 'sayer ('saw'ear') occurs 59 times in the AV and only twice is it rendered 'devils' (demons) and twice as 'satyr'.
In the other 55 instances it is simply 'kid' (male goat) or 'hairy' - The root word שער 'sa'ear' being the common Hebrew word for 'hair'.

Iskander · 03-07-2013, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Thanks Mountainman

The Septuagint is a Greek translation of older literature produced in Mesopotamia and elsewhere.

When the translation was written there was no “story” ....

Now hang on one minute. The translation of the Hebrew Bible to the LXX by the King of Egypt in the 3rd century BCE is a LEGEND. The basis of this LEGEND is a letter inserted into Josephus the 1st century CE author. See the Letter of Aristeas, repeated by Eusebius in his "Church Thesis in History".

While I agree that the Greek LXX (as a well circulated book) must have existed before the Jesus Story, I do not agree that either the Greek LXX or the Jesus story necessarily existed in the 1st century of the common era.

I have already made the point that the oldest version of the Greek LXX - which appears in Vaticanus and other 4th century bible codices - is the version edited by Origen in the 3rd century.

Therefore the LXX existed in the 3rd century in the library of Origen, possibly in a number of translations which Origen presented in his Hexapla. But as to how much any of these versions were in circulation in the prior centuries, I do not know.

Certainly the gospel authors and Paul etc had some version Greek LXX before them.

But we still don't know the century when the gospel authors and Paul copy/pasted from this LXX.

But to bring this back to the OP.

Quote:

The Greek term "daimon" [δαίμων] does not have any connotations of evil or malevolence.
In fact, εὐδαιμονία eudaimonia, (lit. good-spiritedness) means happiness.

The term first acquired its negative connotations
in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible,
which drew on the mythology of ancient Semitic religions.
This was then inherited by the Koine text of the New Testament.

The question therefore is when the LXX went into "wide circulation" [if at all] with this negative emphasis on the Greek term "daimon" [δαίμων].

The LEGEND of this happening in the epoch BCE is eminently questionable.

It could have happened just before the new testament was authored [whenever that may have been].

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Perhaps nothing has ever happened in the remote past and yet and yet ... the Jewish sages are on record as having regretted the “translation of the elders, also known as the day of calamity and the translation of the seventy...
http://www.ou.org/chagim/roshchodesh/tevet/default.htm

#1

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountaiman

What purpose would the Gospel authors have had for subverting the original Greek meaning of the term "daimon"?.

I accept that the Christian devil is not Greek. Christianity probably got this idea of a hellish evil spirit from the Zoroastrians via Judaism or directly from Persia as a social infection during social intercourse with either society.
Where the alien devil does come from?

mountainman · 03-07-2013, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

It would be good if you stopped trying to talk about things you have no knowledge of. You might learn about Greek noun forms. δαιμονων is the genitive plural of δαίμων, ie it's the same word, but adapted to the grammatical necessity of the context. So, no there is no difference between them. Try again.

However IIUC there is a distinction between δαίμων and δαιμόνιον with δαιμόνιον being the most usual form in the LXX and NT.

Hi Andrew,

I have been thinking about this and looking at the two separate Strong's numbers - Strong's G1142 and Strong's G1140.

I think spin made a mistake. The Greek term transliterated as "daimon" - the subject of the OP - does not appear in the LXX.

I could be wrong of course, after all spin is supposed to be an expert.

Strong's G1142 - daimōn - δαίμων - Strong's Number G1142 matches the Greek δαίμων (daimōn), which occurs 5 times in 5 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV - Page 1 / 1 (Mat 8:31 - Rev 18:2)

Quote:

1) a god, a goddess

a) an inferior deity, whether good or bad

2) in the NT, an evil spirit

Strong's G1140 - daimonion - δαιμόνιον - Strong's Number G1140 matches the Greek δαιμόνιον (daimonion), which occurs 60 times in 52 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV - Page 1 / 3 (Mat 7:22 - Luk 8:2)

Quote:

1) the divine power, deity, divinity

2) a spirit, a being inferior to God, superior to men

3) evil spirits or the messengers and ministers of the devil

I guess we are just back with the gospel authors (although there are two instances in Revelations also).

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 03-07-2013, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

What purpose would the Gospel authors have had for subverting the original Greek meaning of the term "daimon"?.

I accept that the Christian devil is not Greek.

The earliest and original New Testament manuscripts were authored in Koine Greek and all of Mark, Matthew and Luke appear to have used the Greek word "daimon" (not devil or demon, but "guardian spirit") in their account, as well as the Greek term "daimonion".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mat 8:31

So the devils "guardian spirits" besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mar 5:12

And all the devils "guardian spirits" besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luk 8:29

(For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil "guardian spirit" into the wilderness.)

Was this just a spelling mistake in Greek? How does Vaticanus read?
Probably not a scribo with all three authors agreeing.

Was the concept of the "guardian spirit" (as an intermediatory between all persons and the divine) was being denigrated in anticipation of the coming of the "Personal Holy Sprit of Jezus" INCORPORATED PTY LTD REG'D TRADE MARK PATENT PENDING ?

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Iskander · 03-07-2013, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

I accept that the Christian devil is not Greek.

The earliest and original New Testament manuscripts were authored in Koine Greek and all of Mark, Matthew and Luke appear to have used the Greek word "daimon" (not devil or demon, but "guardian spirit") in their account, as well as the Greek term "daimonion".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luk 8:29

(For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil "guardian spirit" into the wilderness.)

Was this just a spelling mistake in Greek? How does Vaticanus read?
Probably not a scribo with all three authors agreeing.

Was the concept of the "guardian spirit" (as an intermediatory between all persons and the divine) was being denigrated in anticipation of the coming of the "Personal Holy Sprit of Jezus" INCORPORATED PTY LTD REG'D TRADE MARK PATENT PENDING ?

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Yes, the hellish evil spirit known to Christians as devil, satan, demon... is not a Greek concept.

Who exported the devil to the Greek speaking Christians?

mountainman · 03-07-2013, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Deut 32:17 Hebrew שדים 'shedim' (shed'eem) -terrible fearful powerful (spirit) ones.

Psalm 106:37 Hebrew שדים 'shedim' (shed'eem) -terrible fearful powerful (spirit) ones.

(The Divine title 'El Shaddai' is an amplified and first person possessive of shed or shadad)

Thanks Shesh. I remember El shaddai.

Quote:

The English connotation of the word 'demon' tends to by Christian tradition be perceived as entirely negative and generally an associative of evil, whereas the Hebrew and Greek terms are neutral as to a shed being either good or evil, just a (spirit) power that is to be feared -either by ones adversaries, or as a (spirit) power being brought to bear against one's self.

The Latin word for "daimon" was "daemon". When the 'a' is dropped from "daemon" it becomes "demon'.

What does the philology say? Greek to Latin then to English?

There were certainly the equivalents of "bad spirits" and "good spirits" and "divine spirits" and "guardian spirits" in all cultures of the planet. I think that this just arises naturally, and equally everywhere.

What I am having a problem with is the specific term "daimon" and the way Matthew, Mark and Luke (and the author of Revelations) used this word in their gospels.

It could not have been a mistake.

They did this for a specific reason.

What was that reason?

All I can think of is subversion of the concept of the "guardian spirit" concept.
After all it was about to become redundant with the appearance of the Holy Ghost.

Any ideas?

Quote:

Isaiah 13:31 Hebrew שעירים 'sa'iyrim' (sa'ear'eem') from שער -wild hairy he-goats (in KJV 'satyrs')
The context of Isaiah 13:31 indicates these are just natural physical "wild beasts" not spiritual 'demons'.

The word שָׂעִיר 'sayer ('saw'ear') occurs 59 times in the AV and only twice is it rendered 'devils' (demons) and twice as 'satyr'.
In the other 55 instances it is simply 'kid' (male goat) or 'hairy' - The root word שער 'sa'ear' being the common Hebrew word for 'hair'.

Holy Hairy Goats!

But as I have stated above (post # 69), unless I am mistaken (and I could be mistaken because I am no expert on Greek or Hebrew) then spin has made a mistake, perhaps on purpose to confuse the OP, in citing the LXX and Josephus.

The term "daimon" in the OP does not seem to appear in the LXX, only in the New Testament.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Iskander · 03-07-2013, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

N/A

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The term "daimon" in the OP does not seem to appear in the LXX

Have a look at this

http://studybible.info/search/LXX_WH/G1140

http://studybible.info/search/LXX_WH/G1142

Who infected Greek thinking with the devil?

spin · 03-07-2013, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

there is a distinction between δαίμων and δαιμόνιον with δαιμόνιον being the most usual form in the LXX and NT.

Yes, you're right: the Judeo-christian tradition tends to use the diminuitive form, though the plural form of δαίμων can carry the same overtones.

mountainman · 03-07-2013, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

N/A

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The term "daimon" in the OP does not seem to appear in the LXX

Have a look at this

http://studybible.info/search/LXX_WH/G1140

http://studybible.info/search/LXX_WH/G1142

Thanks very much Iskander.

The studybible has the following entry for G1142 δαίμων

Quote:

Originally Posted by studybible

G1142 δαίμων - Strong's Greek Lexicon Number

δαίμων .... to divide

δαίμωνa ... dæmon or supernatural spirit (of a bad nature)

Derivation: from δαίω (to distribute fortunes);

KJV Usage: devil.

Thayer:
1) a god, a goddess
1a) an inferior deity, whether good or bad
2) in the NT, an evil spirit

However when we go to Perseus for the Classical Greek usage we get the following

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon

δαίμων , ονος, voc.

A. “δαίμων” S.OC1480 (lyr.), “δαῖμον” Theoc.2.11, ὁ, ἡ, god, goddess, of individual gods or goddesses, Il.1.222, 3.420, etc.; “δαίμονι ἶσος” 5.438; ἐμίσγετο δαίμονι δαίμων, of Φιλίη and Νεῖκος, Emp. 59.1 :—but more freq. of the Divine power (while θεός denotes a God in person), the Deity, cf. Od.3.27; πρὸς δαίμονα against the Divine power, Il.17.98; σὺν δαίμονι by its grace, 11.792; κατὰ δαίμονα, almost, = τύχῃ, by chance, Hdt.1.111; “τύχᾳ δαίμονος” Pi.O.8.67; ἄμαχος δ., i. e. Destiny, B.15.23: in pl., ὅτι δαίμονες θέλωσιν, what the Gods ordain, Id.16.117; “ταῦτα δ᾽ ἐν τῷ δ.” S. OC1443; “ἡ τύχη καὶ ὁ δ.” Lys. 13.63, cf.Aeschin.3.111; “κατὰ δαίμονα καὶ συντυχίαν” Ar.Av.544.

2. the power controlling the destiny of individuals: hence, one's lot or forlune, “δτυγερὸς δέ οἱ ἔχραε δ.” Od.5.396, cf. 10.64; “δαίμονος αἶσα κακή” 11.61; δαίμονα δώσω I will deal thee fate, i.e. kill thee, I1.8.166; freq. in Trag. of good or ill fortune, “ὅταν ὁ δ. εὐροῇ” A.Pers.601; “δ. ἀσινής” Id.Ag.1342 (lyr.); “κοινός” Id.Th.812; “γενναῖος πλὴν τοῦ δαίμονος” S.OC76; “δαίμονος σκληρότης” Antipho 3.3.4; “τὸν οἴακα στρέφει δ. ἑκάστψ” Anaxandr.4.6; personified as the good or evil genius of a family or person, “δ. τῷπλεισθενιδῶν” A.Ag.1569, cf. S.OT1194 (lyr.); “ὁ ἑκάστου δ.” Pl.Phd.107d, cf. PMag.Lond.121.505, Iamb.Myst.9.1; “ὁ δ. ὁ τὴν ἡμετέραν μοῖραν λελογχώς” Lys.2.78; “ἅπαντι δ. ἀνδρι συμπαρίσταται εὐθὺς γενομένῳ μυσταγωγὸς τοῦ βίου” Men.16.2 D.; “δ. ἀλάστορες” Id.8D.; “ὁ μέγας [τοῦ Καίσαρος] δ.” Plu.Caes.69; ὁ σὸς δ. κακός ibid.; “ὁ βασιλέως δ.” Id.Art.15; “ἦθος ἀνθρώπῳ δ.” Heraclit.119; “Ξενοκράτης φησὶ τὴν ψυχὴν ἑκάστου εἶναι δ.” Arist.Top.112a37.

II. δαίμονες, οἱ, souls of men of the golden age, acting as tutelary deities, Hes.Op. 122, Thgn.1348, Phoc.15, Emp.115.5, etc.; “θεῶν, δ., ἡρώων, τῶν ἐν Ἅιδου” Pl.R.392a: less freq. in sg., “δαίμονι δ᾽ οἷος ἔησθα τὸ ἐργάζεσθαι ἄμεινον” Hes.Op.314; τὸν τὲ δ. Δαρεῖον ἀγκαλεῖσθε, of the deified Darius, A.Pers.620; νῦν δ᾽ ἐστὶ μάκαιρα δ., of Alcestis, E.Alc.1003 (lyr.), cf.IG12(5).305.5 (Paros): later, of departed souls, Luc.Luct.24; δαίμοσιν εὐσεβέσιν, = Dis Manibus, IG14.1683; so θεοὶ δ., ib.938, al.: also, ghost, Paus.6.6.8.

2. generally, spiritual or semi-divine being inferior to the Gods, Plu.2.415a, al., Sallust.12, Dam.Pr.183, etc.; esp. evil spirit, demon, Ev.Matt.8.31, J.AJ8.2.5; “φαῦλοι δ.” Alex.Aphr.Pr.2.46; δαίμονος ἔσοδος εἰς τὸν ἄνθρωπον, Aret.SD1.4; “πρᾶξις ἐκβάλλουσα δαίμονας” PMag.Par.1227.

3. ἀγαθὸς δ. the Good Genius to whom a toast was drunk after dinner, Ar.V.525, Nicostr.Com.20, D.S.4.3, Plu.2.655e, Philonid. ap. Ath.15.675b, Paus.9.39.5, IG12(3).436 (Thera), etc.; of Nero, “ἀ. δ. τῆς οἰκουμένης” OGI666.3; of the Nile, ἀ. δ. ποταμός ib.672.7 (i A.D.); of the tutelary genius of individuals (supr. 1), “ἀ. δ. Ποσειδωνίου” SIG1044.9 (Halic.): pl., δαίμονες ἀ., = Lat. Di Manes, SIG1246 (Mylasa): Astrol., ἀγαθός, κακός δ., names of celestial κλῆροι, Paul.Al.N.4, O.1, etc. (Less correctly written Ἀγαθοδαίμων, q.v.).

B. = δαήμων, knowing, δ. μάχης skilled in fight, Archil.3.4. (Pl. Cra.398b, suggests this as the orig. sense; while others would write δαήμονες in Archil., and get rid of this sense altogether; cf. however αἵμων. More probably the Root of δαίμων (deity) is δαίω to distribute destinies;; cf. Alcm.48.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Who infected Greek thinking with the devil?

Good question Iskander. In one instance at least evidence is available.

In respect of the word "daimon" [Latin 'daemon'], the evidence seems to incriminate
the anonymous authors of the Greek gospel manuscripts, Mark, Luke and Matthew.

The Christian concordance and the Classical Greek concordance
for the same Greek word G1142 δαίμων ("daimon") look remarkably different.
It's almost a case of black and white - I don't need to understand the Greek language
in entirety to understand that there is something seriously wrong with the Christian usage of G1142 δαίμων ("daimon").

The question therefore becomes why would the author(s) of Mark, Luke and Matthew want to infect Greek thinking in this manner?

The only answer I can think of atm is that they wanted to denigrate and/or bury [subvert] and/or attack and/or rebel against
anything good any Greek might want to say (or write) about the "guardian spirit" aka the "heavenly twin".
As I have suggested above, the "Holy Ghost" propaganda being circulated (by the same authors of Mark, Luke and Matthew).

When the pagans came and asked why they needed to accept the Holy Spirit of Jesus and the God Father, when they already had their "daimon" interceding on their behalf to the God Father, the Christians could simply cite the gospel authors. The Christian's book told the Christians that the Greek "daimon" [guardian spirit] was a "demon". It was a no go zone.

More to the point (of the sword) the pagan "guardian spirit" was heresy.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Iskander · 03-07-2013, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

N/A

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

the evidence seems to incriminate the anonymous authors of the Greek gospel manuscripts, Mark, Luke and Matthew

Thank you ,mountainman

The question is who infected Mark, Luke and Matthew

You have already shown that classical pagan Greece understood those words to mean one thing and the NT another different meaning.

The question is to explain how this difference in meaning came about: who put the devil in the in the mind of the people?

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03-07-2013, 12:42 AM	#61
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Deut 32:17 Hebrew שדים 'shedim' (shed'eem) -terrible fearful powerful (spirit) ones. Psalm 106:37 Hebrew שדים 'shedim' (shed'eem) -terrible fearful powerful (spirit) ones. (The Divine title 'El Shaddai' is an amplified and first person possessive of shed or shadad) The English connotation of the word 'demon' tends to by Christian tradition be perceived as entirely negative and generally an associative of evil, whereas the Hebrew and Greek terms are neutral as to a shed being either good or evil, just a (spirit) power that is to be feared -either by ones adversaries, or as a (spirit) power being brought to bear against one's self. Isaiah 13:31 Hebrew שעירים 'sa'iyrim' (sa'ear'eem') from שער -wild hairy he-goats (in KJV 'satyrs') The context of Isaiah 13:31 indicates these are just natural physical "wild beasts" not spiritual 'demons'. The word שָׂעִיר 'sayer ('saw'ear') occurs 59 times in the AV and only twice is it rendered 'devils' (demons) and twice as 'satyr'. In the other 55 instances it is simply 'kid' (male goat) or 'hairy' - The root word שער 'sa'ear' being the common Hebrew word for 'hair'.

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