Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 06-19-2013, 10:33 PM

Joel Watts in the HuffPo

What if Jesus Was Real?

Watts starts out by slandering mythicists, then goes on to say that Erhman's attempt to counter mythicism has problems, and then admits that it is almost impossible to recover the historical Jesus - but he goes on to try.

Quote:

In the end we have to ask, 'what if Jesus was real.' The historical person of Jesus is almost unrecoverable, although several remarkable scholars are currently absorbed in groundbreaking research in a hope to do just that. [note - he links to Jesus, Criteria, and the Demise of Authenticity (or via: amazon.co.uk) at this point.] What I believe is recoverable is not the stuff of legends or myth, but one of a real person embroiled in a dangerous tango of revolution. ...

The real Jesus was a Jew, one nearly unrecoverable in the present -- but this doesn't mean he didn't exist. It just means we have to live constantly with the doubt we may never really find him. As a Christian, this doesn't bother me much because I have the guidance of Tradition. As a scholar, however, there are times I wish I could simply stop looking, but knowing I cannot, trudge along. ..

Go to the link for the full article, which is very short.

There is a response to this on the Irreducible Complexity blog

Quote:

.... The point simply hasn’t got out that traditional Christian truth claims about Jesus are false. And I think that is often because scholars tend to tread very carefully there. ...
...

Jesus Christ did not exist. This has been known for 200 years. That some of his legends may have been based on an obscure wandering exorcist is as unimportant beyond scholarship as the biographical details of Nicholas of Myra are to the question of whether Santa Claus brings presents down your chimney on Christmas eve.

The scholarly question is interesting. But pretending that the scholarly question is the important one in our political context is unhelpful. A sizeable organised polity wants to curtail our freedoms and impose laws on the basis of things that did not happen – is putting down mythicism really the important public battle?

eta: There is more discussion along these lines on James McGrath's blog here

Steven Carr · 06-22-2013, 10:33 PM

'... but one of a real person embroiled in a dangerous tango of revolution'

Just one person embroiled in this revolution, eh?

That probably explains why the Romans did not crucify the lot of them. There was only Jesus in this revolution.

Robert Tulip · 06-22-2013, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

'why the Romans did not crucify the lot of them.

Josephus said the reason was they ran out of wood.

The cross of Jesus Christ displaces the psychological trauma of the destruction of the temple and the mass crucifixion of Jews by Romans on to a single representative symbolic figure, one for all, as an exercise in recovered memory syndrome.

youngalexander · 06-23-2013, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

Josephus said the reason was they ran out of wood.

Or was it because they couldna' see tha wood far tha trees ladee?:wave:

Will Wiley · 06-23-2013, 01:55 AM

From Joels blog.

Quote:

2. And there’s the one that everyone is interested in, about the validity of Christian truth claims.

ER..no. why would everyone be interested in that? Or another way of saying it. Why do we continue to allow christians, with their absurd story about a dysfunctional god who sends people to hell, to define the terms.

James The Least · 06-23-2013, 03:52 AM

Quote:

In the end we have to ask, 'what if Jesus was real.' The historical person of Jesus is almost unrecoverable, although several remarkable scholars are currently absorbed in groundbreaking research in a hope to do just that. [note - he links to Jesus, Criteria, and the Demise of Authenticity (or via: amazon.co.uk) at this point.] What I believe is recoverable is not the stuff of legends or myth, but one of a real person embroiled in a dangerous tango of revolution. ...

The real Jesus was a Jew, one nearly unrecoverable in the present -- but this doesn't mean he didn't exist. It just means we have to live constantly with the doubt we may never really find him. As a Christian, this doesn't bother me much because I have the guidance of Tradition. As a scholar, however, there are times I wish I could simply stop looking, but knowing I cannot, trudge along. ..

Meet the new Quest. Same as the old Quest.

"We can't infer any reliable history about Jesus from the gospels. But we can pretend that we can, if we read the texts with the correct prophetic scholarly magic glasses that allow us to see what others cannot."

Minimalist · 06-23-2013, 12:26 PM

Quote:

What if Jesus Was Real?

Even though the philosophical stuff usually bores me to tears, the question is interesting.

Dismissing the miracle working son-of-god routine, we seem to be given two choices.

One, an anti-Roman rebel who got himself killed, or

Two, a preacher to slaves and peasants who counseled them to keep their mouths shut and wait for their reward in the "next" life, and got himself killed anyway.

Well, there is no current Roman empire and the number of slaves and peasants - at least in xtian countries - is way down. Of what value is either point of view?

James The Least · 06-23-2013, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

What if Jesus Was Real?

Even though the philosophical stuff usually bores me to tears, the question is interesting.

Dismissing the miracle working son-of-god routine, we seem to be given two choices.

One, an anti-Roman rebel who got himself killed, or

Two, a preacher to slaves and peasants who counseled them to keep their mouths shut and wait for their reward in the "next" life, and got himself killed anyway.

Well, there is no current Roman empire and the number of slaves and peasants - at least in xtian countries - is way down. Of what value is either point of view?

It's strange, isn't it? Ehrman concluded one of his books by stating that even though we know almost nothing reliable about Jesus, his basic message must have been one of love and compassion, and hey, what's wrong with that? So it's worthwhile to worship Jesus the Compassionate.

aa5874 · 06-23-2013, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

What if Jesus Was Real?

Even though the philosophical stuff usually bores me to tears, the question is interesting.

Dismissing the miracle working son-of-god routine, we seem to be given two choices.

One, an anti-Roman rebel who got himself killed, or

Two, a preacher to slaves and peasants who counseled them to keep their mouths shut and wait for their reward in the "next" life, and got himself killed anyway.

Well, there is no current Roman empire and the number of slaves and peasants - at least in xtian countries - is way down. Of what value is either point of view?

It's strange, isn't it? Ehrman concluded one of his books by stating that even though we know almost nothing reliable about Jesus, his basic message must have been one of love and compassion, and hey, what's wrong with that? So it's worthwhile to worship Jesus the Compassionate.

Jesus the Compassionate was a late fabrication. The early Jesus story claimed he deliberately spoke in parables so that the populace would not understand him and remain in sin.

Mark 4 KJV

Quote:

11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

12 That seeing they may see , and not perceive ; and hearing they may hear , and not understand ; lest at any time they should be converted , and their sins should be forgiven them

34 But without a parable spake he not unto them.....

The early story of Jesus had nothing whatsoever to do with compassion.

Toto · 06-23-2013, 05:45 PM

What if Jesus WERE real?

A comment on language and scholarship in the article referenced in the OP (part of the internet war between James McGrath and fellow Christians and Neil Godfrey and co-bloggers.)

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06-22-2013, 10:33 PM	#2
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	'... but one of a real person embroiled in a dangerous tango of revolution' Just one person embroiled in this revolution, eh? That probably explains why the Romans did not crucify the lot of them. There was only Jesus in this revolution.

06-23-2013, 05:45 PM	#10
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	What if Jesus WERE real? A comment on language and scholarship in the article referenced in the OP (part of the internet war between James McGrath and fellow Christians and Neil Godfrey and co-bloggers.)

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