Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 08-13-2013, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kent F

Why can't it be Irenaeus writing in the 2nd century to please the Emperor Commodus? A non-apologetic source, Cassius Dio, said that Commodus had a christian mistress named Marcia ......

Please provide the Cassius Dio reference Kent.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

stephan huller · 08-13-2013, 09:36 PM

He doesn't need to. It's common knowledge. And it's not just one source. Herodian I think is another. Lampridius is another.

mountainman · 08-13-2013, 10:23 PM

Anyone making a claim here is obliged to cite their source(s).

If it's common knowledge then you provide the source for the claim that Cassius Dio mentions anything to do with Christians. While you're at it since you also claim Heriodian mentions Christians and/or Christianity you should provide the source.

As far as Lampridius goes, this figure is supposedly one of the six (fictitious?) scriptores of the "Historia Augusta", and your reference is not even worth talking about.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

stephan huller · 08-13-2013, 10:33 PM

But it's not a 'claim.' It's a fact that anyone pimping an Imperial conspiracy theory should be aware of.

mountainman · 08-14-2013, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kent F

A non-apologetic source, Cassius Dio, said that Commodus had a christian mistress named Marcia ......

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But it's not a 'claim.'

Yes it is a claim namely that we may find a reference to Christians and/or Christianity in the writings of the historian Cassius Dio. I don't think the historian Cassius Dio ever once mentions Christians and/or Christianity and therefore if you wish to demonstrate that there is such a reference it is up to you to provide it.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Toto · 08-14-2013, 01:25 AM

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...s_Dio/73*.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dio Cassius

There was a certain Marcia, the mistress of Quadratus (one of the men slain at this time), and Eclectus, his cubicularius;3 the latter became the cubicularius of Commodus also, and the former, first the emperor's mistress and later the wife of Eclectus, 7 and she saw them also perish by violence. The tradition is that she greatly favoured the Christians and rendered them many kindnesses, inasmuch as she could do anything with Commodus.

http://www2.cnr.edu/home/araia/MarciaAurelia.html

Quote:

Marcia Aurelia Demetrias was the daughter of Marcus Aurelius Sabinianus Euhodus, an imperial freedman (see names) under the co-emperors Marcus Aurelius (161-180 CE) and Lucius Verus (161-169 CE ). Raised by a Christian eunuch, Hyacinthus, she became the concubine of the emperor's nephew, Marcus Ummidius Quadratus (consul 167 CE), who was put to death by the emperor Commodus for his involvement in an assassination plot led by the emperor's sister Lucilla. Marcia Aurelia Demetrias subsequently became Commodus' favored mistress and, adept at handling the unstable emperor (180-192 CE), she used her influence to diminish his cruelty (see Cassius Dio, Roman History 73.4). She obtained the release of Christians who had been sent to labor in the Sardinian mines; one of these was Callistus, who later as bishop of Rome (217-222 CE) passed contested liberal legislation on the marriage of Christian women. Marcia Aurelia Demetrias was thought to have poisoned Commodus on December 31, 192, then married her fellow-slave and long-time lover, Eclectus. As a result, both were put to death in 193 by Pertinax, a stern imperial successor to Commodus who was himself assassinated within three months by his own soldiers.

One of the sources of information on Christians in Commodus' court might have been the physician Galen.

Toto · 08-14-2013, 01:26 AM

So Pete - is this all fabricated? It doesn't sound like typical Christian fabrication.

Vorkosigan · 08-14-2013, 04:21 AM

Must every thread be derailed?

watersbeak · 08-14-2013, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I am starting to wonder if the reference to the longer ending of Mark is a later addition (to the extant, Latin version of Irenaeus text, Against Heresies).

(snip)

It's common knowledge (that Cassius Dio wrote something about Christianity in the third century)

Quote:

Must every thread be derailed?

?

How is it "derailing" a thread, to inquire about sources of information?

How is it "derailing" a thread to challenge prevailing assumptions?

What kind of a forum is this?

How does stephan huller ask the question about modification of Ireneaus' text, without then embracing the same question about the text of Cassius Dio?

What is the provenance of the extant text of Mr. Dio? An answer to that question would be far more useful, than complaining about "derailment", as though, "everyone" knows, already, ("common knowledge) what it is, that Mr. Dio wrote?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

One of the sources of information on Christians in Commodus' court might have been the physician Galen.

Maybe it was not Galen? Maybe it was Eusebius, or Jerome, or Augustine?

Why would Galen be writing about Christians, he was a physician, no? Why would he be interested in a philosophy entirely contrary to that of Aristotle? Was Galen not renowned for his philosophical writings based on empiricism? Why would you interject that sentiment, on a thread devoted to Irenaeus? Is that what Vorkosigan was complaining about--confounding an empiricist/physician's writings with the fables of Irenaeus?

?

stephan huller · 08-14-2013, 07:40 AM

Quote:

How is it "derailing" a thread, to inquire about sources of information?

But what's there to 'inquire' about? The information has been there for centuries and it is confirmed in many other sources. The most obvious being the Christian source the Philosophumena commonly identified as 'the Refutation of Heresies' and attributed to Hippolytus. The effort of mountainman is transparent - you can't have Christians before Eusebius if Eusebius et al invented Christianity. So it's a complete waste of time line of inquiry because it is motivated by an attempt to rescue an idiotic theory. That's it. Why else would someone make up that Commodus's whore was a Christian. Christians? Come on.

Quote:

How is it "derailing" a thread to challenge prevailing assumptions?

Because it's purpose is only to rescue an idiotic theory. See above.

Quote:

What kind of a forum is this?

One that tolerates idiotic theories in the name of 'free speech' it would seem

Quote:

How does stephan huller ask the question about modification of Ireneaus' text, without then embracing the same question about the text of Cassius Dio?

For the same reason I can safely assume that it was not Christian editors who made up the Talmud's story about Jesus wallowing in a pile of hot shit for all eternity. The logic that Christians 'made up' the association with this whore requires circular logic like "they knew Pete the mountainman would come one day and 'figure out' the truth so they three in a few obstacles in his way." Reminds me of this guy I knew growing up who was convinced that the reason he couldn't get dates was because all women were lesbians.

Quote:

What is the provenance of the extant text of Mr. Dio? An answer to that question would be far more useful, than complaining about "derailment", as though, "everyone" knows, already, ("common knowledge) what it is, that Mr. Dio wrote?

When you come up with a plausible theory that Christians wanted to associate a notorious harlot with their religion please come back to us.

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08-13-2013, 09:36 PM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	He doesn't need to. It's common knowledge. And it's not just one source. Herodian I think is another. Lampridius is another.

08-13-2013, 10:23 PM	#3
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Anyone making a claim here is obliged to cite their source(s). If it's common knowledge then you provide the source for the claim that Cassius Dio mentions anything to do with Christians. While you're at it since you also claim Heriodian mentions Christians and/or Christianity you should provide the source. As far as Lampridius goes, this figure is supposedly one of the six (fictitious?) scriptores of the "Historia Augusta", and your reference is not even worth talking about. εὐδαιμονία \| eudaimonia

08-13-2013, 10:33 PM	#4
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But it's not a 'claim.' It's a fact that anyone pimping an Imperial conspiracy theory should be aware of.

08-14-2013, 01:26 AM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	So Pete - is this all fabricated? It doesn't sound like typical Christian fabrication.

08-14-2013, 04:21 AM	#8
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Must every thread be derailed?

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