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Old 08-13-2013, 09:18 PM   #1
mountainman
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Default Does Cassius Dio mention Christians split from Irenaeus' refrerence

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Originally Posted by Kent F View Post
Why can't it be Irenaeus writing in the 2nd century to please the Emperor Commodus? A non-apologetic source, Cassius Dio, said that Commodus had a christian mistress named Marcia ......
Please provide the Cassius Dio reference Kent.

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Old 08-13-2013, 09:36 PM   #2
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He doesn't need to. It's common knowledge. And it's not just one source. Herodian I think is another. Lampridius is another.
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:23 PM   #3
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Anyone making a claim here is obliged to cite their source(s).


If it's common knowledge then you provide the source for the claim that Cassius Dio mentions anything to do with Christians. While you're at it since you also claim Heriodian mentions Christians and/or Christianity you should provide the source.

As far as Lampridius goes, this figure is supposedly one of the six (fictitious?) scriptores of the "Historia Augusta", and your reference is not even worth talking about.





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Old 08-13-2013, 10:33 PM   #4
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But it's not a 'claim.' It's a fact that anyone pimping an Imperial conspiracy theory should be aware of.
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Old 08-14-2013, 12:59 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent F View Post
A non-apologetic source, Cassius Dio, said that Commodus had a christian mistress named Marcia ......
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Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
But it's not a 'claim.'

Yes it is a claim namely that we may find a reference to Christians and/or Christianity in the writings of the historian Cassius Dio. I don't think the historian Cassius Dio ever once mentions Christians and/or Christianity and therefore if you wish to demonstrate that there is such a reference it is up to you to provide it.

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Old 08-14-2013, 01:25 AM   #6
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http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...s_Dio/73*.html

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Originally Posted by Dio Cassius
There was a certain Marcia, the mistress of Quadratus (one of the men slain at this time), and Eclectus, his cubicularius;3 the latter became the cubicularius of Commodus also, and the former, first the emperor's mistress and later the wife of Eclectus, 7 and she saw them also perish by violence. The tradition is that she greatly favoured the Christians and rendered them many kindnesses, inasmuch as she could do anything with Commodus.
http://www2.cnr.edu/home/araia/MarciaAurelia.html

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Marcia Aurelia Demetrias was the daughter of Marcus Aurelius Sabinianus Euhodus, an imperial freedman (see names) under the co-emperors Marcus Aurelius (161-180 CE) and Lucius Verus (161-169 CE ). Raised by a Christian eunuch, Hyacinthus, she became the concubine of the emperor's nephew, Marcus Ummidius Quadratus (consul 167 CE), who was put to death by the emperor Commodus for his involvement in an assassination plot led by the emperor's sister Lucilla. Marcia Aurelia Demetrias subsequently became Commodus' favored mistress and, adept at handling the unstable emperor (180-192 CE), she used her influence to diminish his cruelty (see Cassius Dio, Roman History 73.4). She obtained the release of Christians who had been sent to labor in the Sardinian mines; one of these was Callistus, who later as bishop of Rome (217-222 CE) passed contested liberal legislation on the marriage of Christian women. Marcia Aurelia Demetrias was thought to have poisoned Commodus on December 31, 192, then married her fellow-slave and long-time lover, Eclectus. As a result, both were put to death in 193 by Pertinax, a stern imperial successor to Commodus who was himself assassinated within three months by his own soldiers.
One of the sources of information on Christians in Commodus' court might have been the physician Galen.
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Old 08-14-2013, 01:26 AM   #7
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So Pete - is this all fabricated? It doesn't sound like typical Christian fabrication.
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:21 AM   #8
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Must every thread be derailed?
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Old 08-14-2013, 06:43 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller
I am starting to wonder if the reference to the longer ending of Mark is a later addition (to the extant, Latin version of Irenaeus text, Against Heresies).

(snip)

It's common knowledge (that Cassius Dio wrote something about Christianity in the third century)
Quote:
Must every thread be derailed?
?

How is it "derailing" a thread, to inquire about sources of information?

How is it "derailing" a thread to challenge prevailing assumptions?

What kind of a forum is this?

How does stephan huller ask the question about modification of Ireneaus' text, without then embracing the same question about the text of Cassius Dio?

What is the provenance of the extant text of Mr. Dio? An answer to that question would be far more useful, than complaining about "derailment", as though, "everyone" knows, already, ("common knowledge) what it is, that Mr. Dio wrote?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto
One of the sources of information on Christians in Commodus' court might have been the physician Galen.
Maybe it was not Galen? Maybe it was Eusebius, or Jerome, or Augustine?

Why would Galen be writing about Christians, he was a physician, no? Why would he be interested in a philosophy entirely contrary to that of Aristotle? Was Galen not renowned for his philosophical writings based on empiricism? Why would you interject that sentiment, on a thread devoted to Irenaeus? Is that what Vorkosigan was complaining about--confounding an empiricist/physician's writings with the fables of Irenaeus?

?
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Old 08-14-2013, 07:40 AM   #10
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How is it "derailing" a thread, to inquire about sources of information?
But what's there to 'inquire' about? The information has been there for centuries and it is confirmed in many other sources. The most obvious being the Christian source the Philosophumena commonly identified as 'the Refutation of Heresies' and attributed to Hippolytus. The effort of mountainman is transparent - you can't have Christians before Eusebius if Eusebius et al invented Christianity. So it's a complete waste of time line of inquiry because it is motivated by an attempt to rescue an idiotic theory. That's it. Why else would someone make up that Commodus's whore was a Christian. Christians? Come on.

Quote:
How is it "derailing" a thread to challenge prevailing assumptions?
Because it's purpose is only to rescue an idiotic theory. See above.

Quote:
What kind of a forum is this?
One that tolerates idiotic theories in the name of 'free speech' it would seem

Quote:
How does stephan huller ask the question about modification of Ireneaus' text, without then embracing the same question about the text of Cassius Dio?
For the same reason I can safely assume that it was not Christian editors who made up the Talmud's story about Jesus wallowing in a pile of hot shit for all eternity. The logic that Christians 'made up' the association with this whore requires circular logic like "they knew Pete the mountainman would come one day and 'figure out' the truth so they three in a few obstacles in his way." Reminds me of this guy I knew growing up who was convinced that the reason he couldn't get dates was because all women were lesbians.

Quote:
What is the provenance of the extant text of Mr. Dio? An answer to that question would be far more useful, than complaining about "derailment", as though, "everyone" knows, already, ("common knowledge) what it is, that Mr. Dio wrote?
When you come up with a plausible theory that Christians wanted to associate a notorious harlot with their religion please come back to us.
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