Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 05-25-2013, 07:10 AM

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Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

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The Historical Jesus story had a popular emotional resonance that served the interests of the orthodox church in its alliance with the Roman State and its rejection of the original enlightened gnostic vision of the Cosmic Christ.

You mean semi-enlightened gnostic vision with eyes only half open and still half shut, and that always was the problem with the Gnostics and the -ism they formed to see more, as with the "Cosmic Christ" 'out there' and not as Christian themselves.

Christian is just a name for a state of mind here where 'the race to run' has been completed, as Paul put it, while the gnostics do not even know that there is one to run, nor did Matthew and Mark who's aim was to convert the world around them in the "Great Comission" instead of their own mind

This would be in the same way a Pantheist see God in nature but not in themselves, and is why the Buddha said that

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"if you want to walk on leather it is much easier to put on leather shoes than clad the whole word with leather,"

, which itself points at the 'Great Commission on the move.'

A social dis-ease is all that is, that the ancients called 'goat-humpers on the move' that today may be called 'hell as a wildfire among men of good will."

Iskander · 05-25-2013, 08:55 AM

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Originally Posted by mountainman

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Originally Posted by Toto

In the Q&A, someone asked her about whether there was a historical Jesus. She said that someone else on her lecture tour had asked that, and her answer was that she didn't care if Jesus existed. Jesus exists in our culture, and that's enough.

I have to respect her position. There may be reasons to care if Jesus existed for a professional in the field of history or religion ...

A professional or amateur in the field of history is obliged to care because it is part of the territory of doing history.

The political perspective of Jesus becomes strong at Nicaea.

Whether he was mythical or historical in any earlier century, his Kingdom came with Bullneck.

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But otherwise, the issue raises an amount of emotion that seems totally out of proportion to the importance of the issue.

I have asked for an objective analysis of this emotion.

1. _______________
2.________________
3.________________

You did bring the subject up.

Over.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Mountainman, if you have a peek at a Catholic forum, in the section reserved for the believers, you should find that the very personal suffering of the redeemer and the associated suffering of his mother make up about ninety per cent of posts.

What could the priest sell if Jesus never existed nor his mother.

If you go to traditional Catholic countries, you should find at festival time dozens of statues of Holy Virgins with local names paraded in the streets and also some statues of Jesus suffering on the cross.

Christianity is based on an invented “sin” and a redeeming murder attributed to real people for ever guilty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEKfxKSrw64

Semana Santa in Spain

Iskander · 05-25-2013, 09:22 AM

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Originally Posted by Cesc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Last week I attended a lecture by AmyJo Mattheis, who was the daughter of a Lutheran pastor, and became a pastor herself. She described her path to atheism - one step was leaving the church and trying to form a philosophical society based on Jesus' teachings.

In the Q&A, someone asked her about whether there was a historical Jesus. She said that someone else on her lecture tour had asked that, and her answer was that she didn't care if Jesus existed. Jesus exists in our culture, and that's enough.

I have to respect her position. There may be reasons to care if Jesus existed for a professional in the field of history or religion, and the issue is important for Christians who care about the Nicene Creed.

But otherwise, the issue raises an amount of emotion that seems totally out of proportion to the importance of the issue.

Yes, you gotta wonder why that is. There's apparantly some psychology there to be explained. To me it seems (sometimes) like a sort of atheist's crusade to exterminate Christianity, and removing the HJ is the determinative battle. But thats just me. Here in Europe there doesn't seem to be the same interest in the HJ/MJ debate (or war) as in the US.

No interest in Britain, in my experience.

Toto · 05-25-2013, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

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I have asked for an objective analysis of this emotion.

You can ask all you want. I don't understand the force of the reaction on a logical level, so I have labeled it emotional.

There are some who have an emotional attachment to their own theories or the theories of their church, but I have never understood some of the other reactions.

Cesc · 05-25-2013, 12:40 PM

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Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

But if he did not exist, it has huge implications for how we should - or rather should not - view Christian origins.

Not really. If, as the evidence points, christianity is a development upon the efforts of Paul in the gentile lands, rather than anything from Judea, then it is irrelevant whether Jesus existed or not for the world got the religion that developed through a man who never met Jesus and proclaimed him because of--on his words--a god-given revelation regarding Jesus. The outcome is the same whether Jesus existed or not. We have no reports prior to Paul as to what happened. We simply don't have means of knowing and knowing wouldn't change the outcome.

The evidence points to Christianity as "a development upon the efforts of Paul in the gentile lands, rather than anything from Judea"? So it's either or? Excuse me, but... what?!

Clivedurdle · 05-25-2013, 01:24 PM

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while the one who touts MJ has probably succumbed to reactionism, driven by misplaced emotions of betrayal or self-righteous anger.

Thinking about my perspective, OK I was dragged up pentecostal but the mythical Jesus is logical to me, like Arthur and Hercules and Romulus are mythical. Hmm - Romulus - loads of people for a very long time thought he was real....

I have quoted Boris Johnson about this before - Jesus makes far more sense as a god becoming human.

spin · 05-25-2013, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

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Originally Posted by spin

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Originally Posted by Cesc

But if he did not exist, it has huge implications for how we should - or rather should not - view Christian origins.

Not really. If, as the evidence points, christianity is a development upon the efforts of Paul in the gentile lands, rather than anything from Judea, then it is irrelevant whether Jesus existed or not for the world got the religion that developed through a man who never met Jesus and proclaimed him because of--on his words--a god-given revelation regarding Jesus. The outcome is the same whether Jesus existed or not. We have no reports prior to Paul as to what happened. We simply don't have means of knowing and knowing wouldn't change the outcome.

The evidence points to Christianity as "a development upon the efforts of Paul in the gentile lands, rather than anything from Judea"? So it's either or? Excuse me, but... what?!

Christian tradition developed the notion of apostolic succession--to handle competing views of the religion--that it retrojected to the period before Paul. The late book of Acts tries to sell the story.

Iskander · 05-25-2013, 01:43 PM

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Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

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while the one who touts MJ has probably succumbed to reactionism, driven by misplaced emotions of betrayal or self-righteous anger.

Thinking about my perspective, OK I was dragged up pentecostal but the mythical Jesus is logical to me, like Arthur and Hercules and Romulus are mythical. Hmm - Romulus - loads of people for a very long time thought he was real....

I have quoted Boris Johnson about this before - Jesus makes far more sense as a god becoming human.

That God became a man is what Christianity say.

Iskander · 05-25-2013, 01:46 PM

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Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

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Originally Posted by Toto

she didn't care if Jesus existed.

The question whether Jesus Christ existed as a historical individual is big. We do not know, to any scientific level of confidence, if the Gospels emerged from memories of an individual messiah figure or if the church constructed that figure as a fictional adumbration of a spiritual imagination. These are rival hypotheses.

Christianity has been through two big revolutions, of space and time. The first big revolution, of space, was the emergence of Protestantism with modern science and the discovery of America, growing with the Copernican Revolution, with its rejection of traditional spatial myths of heaven. The second big revolution, of time, was Darwin's rejection of creationist ideas of time, and the emergence of scientific biology and geology at the foundation of the evolutionary understanding of the real age and process of the world.

The third revolution, happening now, is a revolution of mind, a recognition that the Christian belief in the historical Jesus is a pervasive political and cultural delusion. To understand that this Big Lie has been so successful helps us to see the weakness of human psychology and our vulnerability to seductive messages. As the great modern theologian Paul Simon observed, 'a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.' The Historical Jesus story had a popular emotional resonance that served the interests of the orthodox church in its alliance with the Roman State and its rejection of the original enlightened gnostic vision of the Cosmic Christ.

Mythicism is a return to Gnosticism. Based on an accurate scientific understanding of time and space, we are now able to see how the human mind relates to our physical reality. Mining the Bible, a new heaven and new earth can now be seen by reading the story of Jesus as fiction. My view is that a key to this new vision is grounded in an exploration of the accurate scientific cosmology of precession of the equinox.

What is a Cosmic Christ?

Robert Tulip · 05-25-2013, 01:58 PM

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Originally Posted by Zwaarddijk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

she didn't care if Jesus existed.

Mining the Bible, a new heaven and new earth can now be seen by reading the story of Jesus as fiction. My view is that a key to this new vision is grounded in an exploration of the accurate scientific cosmology of precession of the equinox.

Yes, mythicism will magically cure all that ails mankind! Hear, hear, all you blind and deaf!

I don't believe in magic, but putting religion on a scientific basis would be a step forward. That means recognising that Jesus Christ was invented.

A common fallacy in atheist circles holds that the errors of historic religion mean religion is intrinsically wrong as a method of thought. That conclusion is based on the modern myth of secular exclusion of the sacred, and does not follow.

The alternative view, suggested by the mythicist literature, is that the churches have a weak understanding of their origins, and a better understanding can show how a religious worldview can be coherent. Mythicist methods hold the promise that religion can potentially be placed on an authentic footing by explaining a coherent logical story of how Christianity evolved.

It is perfectly possible to have a religious outlook that is grounded in scientific understanding. It may even be possible to retain a recognition that the story of Jesus Christ is central. But such an understanding has to clear away the accumulated debris of two millennia of false supernatural belief, looking to how theology can be reconciled with evidence.

Supernaturalism has collapsed except within fundamentalist churches, where it retains a powerful psychological emotional hold. Fundamentalist Christians hold beliefs, including in the Historical Jesus, that lack adequate evidentiary basis. Culture can evolve from this crisis of faith by recognising the original gnostic intent of the gospel authors. Mark sought to present Christ as allegory, with "Jesus of Nazareth" a code for the Nazarene Gnostic mystery tradition. Applying this gnostic scientific heuristic to theology offers a way to find and restore a sense of meaning within Christianity.

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