FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Philosophy & Religious Studies > History of Abrahamic Religions & Related Texts
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 01:23 AM

Notices

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-16-2013, 12:52 PM   #11
Toto
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
Toto,

re: "See this article on the secular web - The Missing Night of Matthew 12:40 - The author rejects the usual proofs that the Jews might have counted a part of a day as a day."


Actually, that is not quite the case because lee writes: "Few dispute the fact that the Jews sometimes reckoned part of a civil day as a whole day for counting purposes--"
The complete quote: "Few dispute the fact that the Jews sometimes reckoned part of a civil day as a whole day for counting purposes--but not just any part of a civil day for a day AND a night. "

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Lee
The burden is on the apologist to prove that the phrase in Matthew 12:40 is an idiom of speech. Just claiming it is an idiom doesn't make it one. Apologists often use the "it was an ancient Ancient Near East (ANE) custom" defense or claim it was a "Hebraic idiom" and they often do it without citing any contemporary sources or parallel grammatical constructions from the Bible that would establish the claim as factual. This technique usually works because the average layperson is intimidated by the scholarship of the asserter and doesn't bother to press the issue further. However, as we shall see, Miller does attempt to supply some sources for his claim (the same used by Hoehner, McDowell, and others). This makes him a cut above the average Usenet apologist, but alas, it isn't sufficient to carry his claim.

...
Toto is offline  
Old 07-19-2013, 09:21 AM   #12
rstrats
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Missouri
Posts: 60
Default

Toto,

re: "The complete quote: "Few dispute the fact that the Jews sometimes reckoned part of a civil day as a whole day for counting purposes--but not just any part of a civil day for a day AND a night."

Sorry, I must have been confused at the time with regard to what he was saying.
rstrats is offline  
Old 07-29-2013, 03:32 PM   #13
John Kesler
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 1,037
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?
Matthew 12:40 is the only place which speaks of Jesus' entombment lasting "three days and three nights." Other NT references, even in Matthew, use less specific language:


*Matthew 17:23 ..."on the third day he will be raised"
*Matthew 20:19..."on the third day he will be raised"
*Matthew 26:61..."destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days" (see also Matthew 27:40)
*Matthew 27:64..."Therefore command the tomb to be made secure until the third day"

In Matthew 12:40, Matthew, per his usual practice, has tried to connect Jesus with an OT "prophecy," and the mention of Jonah in the original saying (preserved in Luke's version) proved too tempting for Matthew not to make the resurrection another "sign." That Friday-Sunday morning doesn't equal 72 hours was of no consequence to him. For that matter, unless one can prove that exactly 72 hours elapsed from Jonah 1:17 to 2:10, the basis of comparison was an "error" to begin with.
John Kesler is offline  
Old 07-29-2013, 04:33 PM   #14
rstrats
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Missouri
Posts: 60
Default

John Kesler,

Do you know of any writing that is asked for in the OP?
rstrats is offline  
Old 07-29-2013, 05:35 PM   #15
John Kesler
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 1,037
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
John Kesler,

Do you know of any writing that is asked for in the OP?
Two OT passages are pertinent:

Quote:
1 Samuel 30:
11 In the open country they found an Egyptian, and brought him to David. They gave him bread and he ate; they gave him water to drink; 12 they also gave him a piece of fig cake and two clusters of raisins. When he had eaten, his spirit revived; for he had not eaten bread or drunk water for three days and three nights. 13 Then David said to him, "To whom do you belong? Where are you from?" He said, "I am a young man of Egypt, servant to an Amalekite. My master left me behind because I fell sick three days ago.

Genesis 7:4, 17; 8:6:
7:4 For in seven days I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights; and every living thing that I have made I will blot out from the face of the ground.
7:17 The flood continued forty days on the earth; and the waters increased, and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth.
8:6 At the end of forty days Noah opened the window of the ark that he had made...
John Kesler is offline  
Old 07-29-2013, 06:13 PM   #16
rstrats
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Missouri
Posts: 60
Default

John Kesler,

I don't see where your 2 references show a period of time which absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights.
rstrats is offline  
Old 09-29-2013, 04:58 AM   #17
rstrats
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Missouri
Posts: 60
Default

Perhaps someone new looking in who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, and who tries to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that it is using common Jewish idiomatic language will know of some writing.
rstrats is offline  
Old 09-29-2013, 06:55 AM   #18
steve_bnk
Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 27,602
Default

How about a 'New York Minute'?


http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...0york%20minute

'...June 20, 2005 Urban Word of the Day
A New York minute is an instant. Or as Johnny Carson once said, it's the interval between a Manhattan traffic light turning green and the guy behind you honking his horn.

It appears to have originated in Texas around 1967. It is a reference to the frenzied and hectic pace of New Yorkers' lives. A New Yorker does in an instant what a Texan would take a minute to do.

I'll have that ready for you in a New York Minute..'

Someone in the past posted that 40 in the Jewish bible colloquially meant 'a while'. It rained for 40 days, JC fasted for 40 days and so on.

http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/m...-bible/40.html

Without a Rosetta Stone for the colloquial culture of times the nuances are impossible to deduce.

I read that Julius Caesar would have used Latin for formal sityuatioins, at home he would have spoken a hodgepodge dialect.
steve_bnk is offline  
Old 09-29-2013, 06:59 AM   #19
rstrats
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Missouri
Posts: 60
Default

steve bnk,

Do you know of any writing as requested in the OP?
rstrats is offline  
Old 09-29-2013, 07:18 AM   #20
steve_bnk
Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 27,602
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
steve bnk,

Do you know of any writing as requested in the OP?
.

Have you tried searching on various key phrases? If a description exists I expect you will find it on a Jewish web site somewhere.

My point was if there is any repeated references using an expression it is probably colloquial.
steve_bnk is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:36 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.