JoeWallack

JW:
You have two primary observations:

1) Paul usually uses "brother" figuratively.

2) Paul usually uses "Lord" for God.

All of James (confusion intended) attempted defenses are secondary points compared to these two. He still does not appreciate that if this is one of his key pieces of evidence for HJ than his argument is seriously weak.

There is a better argument for HJ here though, one that Traditional scholarship does not want to make. Taking a look at Galatians 1:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Galatians_1

The entire context is Paul's claimed contrast between his source of authority of Divine verses his competition's source of authority of human witness. Having Paul really label James as the human brother of Jesus here fits the context that Paul is using it as an insult, not a compliment. James' source of knowledge about Jesus was his human witness to human Jesus. In contrast Paul's source of knowledge about Jesus was Divine witness from the Divine.

This does not undo your two points above but does give contextual support of the surrounding chapter to a literal meaning and is also supported by being implied elsewhere in Paul. Not proof of course, just speculation. But it is good speculation.


Joseph

aa5874

It is completely erroneous that "Paul" usually uses 'Lord' for 'God'.

It is Jesus who is LORD in the Pauline Corpus. In fact, anytime the words 'God', 'Jesus' and 'Lord' are in the same verse it almost always that Jesus is LORD.

1 Corinthians 6:14 KJV---And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

In the Pauline Corpus Jesus is LORD and God is Father.

1. Romans 15:6 KJV---That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

2. 1 Corinthians 1:3 KJV----Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3. 2 Corinthians 1:2 KJV--Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

4. Galatians 1:3 KJV---Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ

5. Ephesians 1:2 KJV---Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

6. Philippians 1:2 KJV---Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

7. Colossians 1:2 KJV--To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

8. 1 Thessalonians 1:1 KJV---Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

9. 2 Thessalonians 1:2 KJV----Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

10. 1 Timothy 1:2 KJV--Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

11. 2 Timothy 1:2 KJV---To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

12. Titus 1:4 KJV---To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

13. Philemon 1:3 KJV---Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

spin

Jeez, TedM, I tried to get you to look at the problem before you flooded the thread with nonsense, but hell, WTF were you thinking? I told you up front the issue I was talking about, ie the use of "lord" in lieu of a name ("arouse the lord's jealousy"), not as a title ("one lord, Jesus Christ") and you just couldn't get that right. I've been through this issue with you before and you seem resilient to understanding. I've already said the distinction existed in the LXX for when Ps 110:1 indicates "the lord said to my lord", no reader would have trouble understanding the first "lord" to mean god and the second to mean the king. Yet you, TedM, totally off-beam, spewed out several examples of "Jesus our lord". I asked you to give it a think. You didn't.

What you did seem to give me was insight into a christian mind that is incapable of confronting the text without reading it as posterity dictates, which tells me that I have little chance of getting you to confront the text anew.

In your fog you did get the two examples I was referring to, 1 Cor 6:14 and 11:23-27. All the rest were either your inability to read or eisegesis.

You can lead a man to slaughter....

aa5874

It is rather strange that you you should mention 1 Cor. 6.14 and 1 Cor. 11.23-27 because virtually all mention of the word "Lord" refers to the character called Jesus in those passages.

There is hardly anytime the Pauline Corpus refers to God as Lord and in the rare occassions it is when the author makes references to the Septuagint.

In the Septuagint, God is Lord--THERE is no Jesus Christ in the Septuagint

Examine 1 Cor. 6.14.

1 Corinthians 6:14 KJV The Lord is Jesus who was raised from the dead.

Examine 1 Cor.11--The Lord's Supper refers to Jesus in the ritual of the Eucharist.

1 Cor. 11

spin

Please address further discussion of the different uses of "the lord" in the thread set up to discuss its significance. It is not relevant to the o.p., which merely indicates that Paul certainly uses "the lord" for god, so one cannot decide a priori that he is not doing so in Gal 1:19.

TedM

I don't think this is true if you consider "Lord Jesus Christ" to be a usage of "Lord", which I do. And especially not if you remove all of the OT citations.

While I understand your point, I don't find it likely Paul was using it either as an insult or a compliment. It reads as a simple identifier which his readers would understand, and nothing more.

TedM

As long as Paul makes clear that "Lord" references Jesus much like the word "Teacher" could, then what difference does it make whether he OFTEN or NEVER uses "the Lord" in place of Jesus' name? Obviously it would be acceptable to do so. That's why "the Lord Jesus Christ" should not be dismissed as you seem to be doing. Who is to say that "the Lord" in "brother of the Lord" is not meant as a Title for Jesus in the same way, since obviously Paul could have written "brother of the Lord Jesus Christ", or "brother of our Lord"? (for clarity try "brother of the Teacher Jesus Christ" or "brother of our Teacher".)

In any case, among my examples I gave I count 10 uses of "the Lord" which are in lieu of the name "Jesus". Not 2.

I agree though that "the Lord" COULD refer to God in Galatians 1:19. I didn't know that was even up for debate. Of course it could. It's just that there is little reason to think that it does for all the reasons I've given.

aa5874

In Galatians the word 'Lord' is found 7 times.

In Galatians 1.3 the LORD refers directly to the character called Jesus, that is, Jesus is INTRODUCED as the LORD.

It is completely logical that Galatians 1.19 refers to Jesus UNLESS the author specifies some other character.

Of the 7 references to the 'LORD' NONE are directly linked to a character called God.

Contextually, the references to the 'Lord' in Galatians are to the character called Jesus the Son of God.

It is a fallacy that in Galatians or the Pauline Corpus the 'Lord' is usually associated with God.

1. Galatians 1:3 KJV--Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

2. Galatians 1:19 KJV---But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

3.Galatians 4:1 KJV---Now I say , That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

4. Galatians 5:10 KJV---I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded : but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be .

5. Galatians 6:14 KJV---But God forbid that I should glory , save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

6. Galatians 6:17 KJV---From henceforth let no man trouble me : for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

7. Galatians 6:18 KJV---Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen . [To the Galatians written from Rome.]

spin

Eisegesis.

Use the other thread.

TedM

I may have to completely reverse my position. aa agrees with me.