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Old 06-13-2013, 05:27 PM   #91
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What evidence from secular references are you talking about?? In your OP you did specifically admit you ASSUMED Christianity started with the Jews.
Agree, the evidences are best left for another thread. Let's stick with the assumption: Jews were among early believers. IF so, why? What were they responding to and why did it resonate with those that responded?

I prefer to mostly read what people have to say. It's been a pretty good discussion so far. Appreciate your input too.
No, don't leave us hanging. What are those secular references? The earliest Roman references to Christianity (Tacitus if valid, Pliny - don't give a hint that these Christians were connected to Jews. Jews had a legal religion, and the Christians were subversive atheists.
Nope. It is not in keeping with the purpose of the thread. If I'm wrong, so be it.
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:48 PM   #92
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This is open to all views with regard to history and the Bible and Jesus, with the one assumption that it Jews were among the early believers:
I reject this one assumption on the basis that nobody has ever found manuscript evidence from antiquity in which the new testament was rendered into either Hebrew or Aramaic. We are dealing with an entirely Greek manuscript tradition, to be read in the Greek language to people in the Roman Empire. If Jews were ever among the earlier believers we should by now have found some Hebrew New Testament manuscripts.

IMO whatever started Christianity was not Jewish in origin.




εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia
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Old 06-13-2013, 08:37 PM   #93
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If Jews were ever among the earlier believers we should by now have found some Hebrew New Testament manuscripts.
Because we have found so many other writings from first century Galilee?
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Old 06-13-2013, 08:39 PM   #94
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I can't help but wonder why Greeks or Romans would invent a religion in the 2nd, 3rd or 4th century that would be centered around a 1st century Jew.
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Old 06-13-2013, 08:49 PM   #95
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I can't help but wonder why Greeks or Romans would invent a religion in the 2nd, 3rd or 4th century that would be centered around a 1st century Jew.
Jews had been dispersed from their homeland from the first and early 2nd centuries - there would 've been less centralization of belief: more diversity and influence by where the various groups of the Jewish diaspora settled or moved through.
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:25 PM   #96
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Is there any historical evidence attesting to the existence of the visionary you're describing that is of a similar kind to historical evidence attesting to the existence of Hong Xiuquan?

Are claims by Hong Xiuquan that he had visions sufficient evidence to establish that he did have visions? and is there any evidence of the visionary you're describing claiming to have had visions?

Is there any evidence that Hong Xiuquan, or anybody else, got the whole text of a book out of visions?

If nobody asked what started Hong Xiuquan's visions, is that a reason why I shouldn't ask what started people's visions?
No, we have copious evidence on Hong. We know something about what the early Christian visionaries saw, but little about which one was first.
What evidence is there of what early Christian visionaries saw?
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It is irrelevant whether Hong actually had visions (though I have no doubt he had some incredible experience) so long as he was able to persuade others that he did.
From that point of view, the question about Hong would be 'What started people believing in Hong's stories about his visions?' and the question about Christianity would be 'What started people believing in the stories of this unidentified visionary?'
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Since no one claims that the early Christians got the whole text of a book out of vision, I don't understand your questions.
My question is, if Christianity was started by a story, and if parts of that story came out visions (or, judging by what you're saying now, possibly out of alleged visions), where did the rest of it come from?
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It is not possible to know why people have visions. We don't have the ability to crack open the brain and look yet.

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Old 06-13-2013, 09:37 PM   #97
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Is there any historical evidence attesting to the existence of the visionary you're describing that is of a similar kind to historical evidence attesting to the existence of Hong Xiuquan?

Are claims by Hong Xiuquan that he had visions sufficient evidence to establish that he did have visions? and is there any evidence of the visionary you're describing claiming to have had visions?

Is there any evidence that Hong Xiuquan, or anybody else, got the whole text of a book out of visions?

If nobody asked what started Hong Xiuquan's visions, is that a reason why I shouldn't ask what started people's visions?
No, we have copious evidence on Hong. We know something about what the early Christian visionaries saw, but little about which one was first.
What evidence is there of what early Christian visionaries saw?
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Originally Posted by Vorkosigan View Post
It is irrelevant whether Hong actually had visions (though I have no doubt he had some incredible experience) so long as he was able to persuade others that he did.
From that point of view, the question about Hong would be 'What started people believing in Hong's stories about his visions?' and the question about Christianity would be 'What started people believing in the stories of this unidentified visionary?'
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Since no one claims that the early Christians got the whole text of a book out of vision, I don't understand your questions.
My question is, if Christianity was started by a story, and if parts of that story came out visions (or, judging by what you're saying now, possibly out of alleged visions), where did the rest of it come from?
According to Doherty - the gospel story writers turned to Jewish history:

"I can well acknowledge that elements of several representative, historical figures fed into the myth of the Gospel Jesus, since even mythical characters can only be portrayed in terms of human personalities, especially ones from their own time that are familiar and pertinent to the writers of the myths."

http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/rfset5.htm#Mary

Unfortunately, Earl has repeatedly failed to provide historical evidence for any figures he deems to be relevant to the creation of the figure of JC in the gospel story.

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It is not possible to know why people have visions. We don't have the ability to crack open the brain and look yet.

Vorkosigan
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Old 06-13-2013, 10:03 PM   #98
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This is open to all views with regard to history and the Bible and Jesus, with the one assumption that it Jews were among the early believers:
I reject this one assumption on the basis that nobody has ever found manuscript evidence from antiquity in which the new testament was rendered into either Hebrew or Aramaic. We are dealing with an entirely Greek manuscript tradition, to be read in the Greek language to people in the Roman Empire. If Jews were ever among the earlier believers we should by now have found some Hebrew New Testament manuscripts.

IMO whatever started Christianity was not Jewish in origin.
For example, Philo seems not to have been able to read Hebrew.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo

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Philo read the Jewish Scriptures chiefly in the Septuagint Greek translation. His knowledge of Hebrew has been a matter of scholarly dispute, with most scholars arguing that he did not read the language.
This would suggest, to my thinking, that a Jewish source for the gospel story is not ruled out. Philo, a Jewish intellectual, living during the time frame of the gospel story, wrote in Greek.
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Old 06-13-2013, 10:33 PM   #99
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Where does Paul say that many Jews converted? Does Paul say that the hub of "Christianity" was in Jerusalem? I don't think so - just that there was a Jerusalem Church of some sort that he had some major disagreements with.

What exactly does Acts say? Acts 2 talks about tongues of fire and charismatic preaching, after which some (but not all Jews) were converted by Peter - but after that we don't hear about Jews being converted.

So we don't actually have firm evidence of Jews becoming "Christians." And the only evidence we have is that conversion works more or less as it does now - people are swept up in the emotion of a preacher's message, think they see miracles, or think they want to join in a movement that might be going someplace.
So who was that preacher, and what was that preacher's message?
Who is not important. It wasn't a specific preacher, but "a" preacher. Does it matter if it was a Paul or an Apollos or a Cephas or any of the unnamed itinerant preachers the Didache cautions believers about? The message was the same, salvation, but the packaging was probably different, depending on the preacher and the moment in time.
I don't understand whether you're suggesting it was just one preacher or more than one preacher.
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:09 PM   #100
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What evidence from secular references are you talking about?? In your OP you did specifically admit you ASSUMED Christianity started with the Jews.
Agree, the evidences are best left for another thread. Let's stick with the assumption: Jews were among early believers. IF so, why? What were they responding to and why did it resonate with those that responded?

I prefer to mostly read what people have to say. It's been a pretty good discussion so far. Appreciate your input too.
No, don't leave us hanging. What are those secular references? The earliest Roman references to Christianity (Tacitus if valid, Pliny - don't give a hint that these Christians were connected to Jews. Jews had a legal religion, and the Christians were subversive atheists.
Nope. It is not in keeping with the purpose of the thread. If I'm wrong, so be it.
Well, what really is your objective? You knew in advance that your claims are not in keeping with the purpose of the thread.
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