Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duvduv · 07-16-2013, 10:34 AM

I don't know if you are intentionally or unintentionally engaging in distracting away from the content of my posting. I am not discussing your "echo" about the Talmudic sources which you consider less true those of "Josephus" or of "Justin Martyr."Hopefully others will want to discuss the issues I raised.

aa5874 · 07-16-2013, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I don't know if you are intentionally or unintentionally engaging in distracting away from the content of my posting. I am not discussing your "echo" about the Talmudic sources which you consider less true those of "Josephus" or of "Justin Martyr."Hopefully others will want to discuss the issues I raised.

Again, you are the one who introduced the Talmud in your OP.

Did you not write this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Then there is the story of how "Josephus" predicted that Vespasian would become emperor. So not only is this Josephus a great general and a serving priest but he was a major rabbinical authority.........despite the fact that the story replicates the events told in the Talmud (Gittin 56b) about Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai who was taken out of Jerusalem in a coffin to avoid the meshugene zealots and went to plead with Vespasian on behalf of the rabbinical center in Yavneh, at which time he called Vespasian "king".

The Talmud is a source of pure bunk.

Examine the pure bunk in the Talmud.

http://www.come-and-hear.com/gittin/gittin_56.html

semiopen · 07-16-2013, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You won't find many things in the Talmud because it is a source of mythology and non-historical accounts.

You will hardly find any non Jewish writings about Yochanan ben Zakkai.

Maybe Yochanan did not exist.

This is a fascinating thread. Personally I was unaware of Josephus making this prediction.

The prediction itself is not that amazing...

Vespasian having an army and all after Nero's suicide and the four emporers -

Quote:

After the death of Nero in 68, Rome saw a succession of short-lived emperors and a year of civil wars. Galba was murdered by Otho, who was defeated by Vitellius. Otho's supporters, looking for another candidate to support, settled on Vespasian.
According to Suetonius, a prophecy ubiquitous in the Eastern provinces claimed that from Judaea would come the future rulers of the world. Vespasian eventually believed that this prophecy applied to him, and found a number of omens, oracles, and portents that reinforced this belief.[14]

I've remarked previously that Neusner believes Yoḥanan Ben Zakkai is a real person.

A Life of Yohanan Ben Zakkai - Ca. 1-80 C.E

Fortunately this book is free on Questia.

Quote:

Since the traditions agree that Yoḥanan escaped from a besieged city, met Vespasian, and predicted his imminent rise to the imperial throne, we may suppose that this probably happened in the spring of 68 A.D., sometime between April and June. Before that time Vespasian was never near Jerusalem, and Yavneh, to which Yoḥanan went, was not in his hands until then. After that time, and before the siege of Titus in 70 A.D. escape became increasingly difficult. Access to the Roman commander required a trip to Caesarea. This spring must have been Yoḥanan's last chance to surrender by escaping through the rebel lines and into the Roman camp. By every evidence he took it.2

footnote 2

Quote:

Some have held that Yoḥanan escaped to Titus, not Vespasian, S. Dubnow, Divré Yemé 'Am 'Olam [History of the Eternal People] ( Tel Aviv, 1936), II, pp. 282-3. The burning of the stores of food, reported in the recension of the event, took place later than the spring of 68. But then the details on Yoḥanan's prediction are meaningless, while they are meant, in fact, to be the point of the stories.

It might well be argued that the prediction of Vespasian's coming rise to power is a literary device, an effort by the Pharisees to prove that they too, like the pagans and Josephus, had known of his coming reign, because their Scriptures so informed them. But I do not see what is to be gained by so postulating; an economy of skepticism is sufficient, when, in fact, so very little is known for certain.

Personally, the Yohanan story seems pretty unlikely. "Vaguely possible" seems to be what Neusner is saying but that's all part of a larger story where Yohanan is smuggled out of Jerusalem in a casket, etc.

Duvduv · 07-16-2013, 01:05 PM

I don't see that we are getting anywhere yet on the issues I raised in the first posting.

In any case, there is enough weird stuff in Josephus to discount the story of his prediction, for which even in the Josephus material itself there is nothing to attribute his qualifications for such things, and of course nowhere in any Jewish texts is there mention of Yoseph ben Mattityahu as anything or anyone. Not as a general, not as a priest, not as a teacher, not as a rabbi, not as a prophet, not as hero and not a a traitor.

A composite job of some original writings about the Jews combined with fanciful additions from the Church.

I still keep wondering about [Josephus = Eusebius].

MrMacSon · 07-16-2013, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The writings attributed to Josephus the son of Mattathias have been described as ... composites: there is also reason to assume that this person did not exist, but was built on traditions attributed to Yosipon the son of Gorion.

We have discussed several times the inventions found in the Josephus writings. I was reviewing the story of the so-called wars in the Galilee, in particular those at Yodefata and Gamala (in the Golan) ... the mass suicide by lots of the soldiers of Josephus happened to incidentally resemble his story of Masada. Except that through a miracle only Josephus was left alive in Yodfata.

Then there is the story of how "Josephus" predicted that Vespasian would become emperor. So not only is this Josephus a great general and a serving priest but he was a major rabbinical authority.........despite the fact that the story replicates the events told in the Talmud (Gittin 56b) about Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai who was taken out of Jerusalem in a coffin to avoid the meshugene zealots and went to plead with Vespasian on behalf of the rabbinical center in Yavneh, at which time he called Vespasian "king".

And the story of Gamala also resembles Masada in several ways, as described by "Josephus". How convenient....It should also be mentioned that Josephus (son of Mattathias, the alleged general and hero, but whose writings are filled with pure bunk) is NOWHERE mentioned in a single ancient Jewish source in any capacity: not as priest, not as general, not as writer, not as prophet, not as rabbi. Nothing.

These are relevant points and ought to be discussed further; preferably by aa5874, among others.

Is it possible some of Josephus's writing are "composites", and some are genuine?

Duvduv · 07-16-2013, 01:52 PM

I guess careful comparison would have to be made with the writings under the name of Yosifon ben Gorion (who is called the brother of Nakdimon/Nikodemis son of Gorion in the Talmud). I cannot vouch for any historical authenticity in the writings attributed to Yosifon, but I guess it's safe to say that the writings under both names contain some genuine material.
However, there is much in Josephus itself that is myth and distortion, and most likely the production of the Church, having not a shred of evidence for them. And yet "Josephus" is portrayed as a "witness" to 1st century Judea. I have already mentioned several examples:

Massada
Yodefata
Gamala
Herod
the Baptist
Pilate
and Josephus' own alleged credentials in light of the character portraying himself as a loyal Roman subject showing how wonderful life could be.

semiopen · 07-16-2013, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

These are relevant points and ought to be discussed further; preferably by aa5874, among others.

Is it possible some of Josephus's writing are "composites", and some are genuine?

The Yohanan Ben Zakkai story is probably the more dubious of the two based on general principles.

However both are plausible.

The Yohanan story is in the Rosh Hashana prayers.

A Nice Rosh Hashanah Story

Quote:

“Peace to you king!! Peace to you king!!” To which Vespasian answered, “Rabbi Yochanan, you could be killed for two reasons: I am not a king and yet you call me king and, if I am a king, why did you not present yourself before me until now??”

A few years ago, my impression was that Yochanan was joking, similar to the way I might call some people doctor. One good thing about Jewish prayer services is that you have time to think.

As I mentioned above, Vespasian was the obvious choice for emperor and it's not that mind blowing if both guys predicted this.

Duvduv · 07-16-2013, 03:52 PM

What makes him the obvious choice? Was he Barack Obama?
The way Romans were killing each other doesn't make for an obvious choice. But the author of Josephus was obviously familiar with the story involving R. Yochanan ben Zakkai.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

These are relevant points and ought to be discussed further; preferably by aa5874, among others.

Is it possible some of Josephus's writing are "composites", and some are genuine?

The Yohanan Ben Zakkai story is probably the more dubious of the two based on general principles.

However both are plausible.

The Yohanan story is in the Rosh Hashana prayers.

A Nice Rosh Hashanah Story

Quote:

“Peace to you king!! Peace to you king!!” To which Vespasian answered, “Rabbi Yochanan, you could be killed for two reasons: I am not a king and yet you call me king and, if I am a king, why did you not present yourself before me until now??”

A few years ago, my impression was that Yochanan was joking, similar to the way I might call some people doctor. One good thing about Jewish prayer services is that you have time to think.

As I mentioned above, Vespasian was the obvious choice for emperor and it's not that mind blowing if both guys predicted this.

MrMacSon · 07-16-2013, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The way Romans were killing each other doesn't make for an obvious choice.
But the author of Josephus was obviously familiar with the story involving R. Yochanan ben Zakkai.

A key feature of the ancient world is tribalism - lots of it, over lots of generations.

Steve Weiss · 07-16-2013, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The way Romans were killing each other doesn't make for an obvious choice.
But the author of Josephus was obviously familiar with the story involving R. Yochanan ben Zakkai.

A key feature of the ancient world is tribalism - lots of it, over lots of generations.

We still have tribalism today. It's just called nationalism and religion.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-16-2013, 10:34 AM	#11
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	I don't know if you are intentionally or unintentionally engaging in distracting away from the content of my posting. I am not discussing your "echo" about the Talmudic sources which you consider less true those of "Josephus" or of "Justin Martyr."Hopefully others will want to discuss the issues I raised.

07-16-2013, 01:05 PM	#14
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	I don't see that we are getting anywhere yet on the issues I raised in the first posting. In any case, there is enough weird stuff in Josephus to discount the story of his prediction, for which even in the Josephus material itself there is nothing to attribute his qualifications for such things, and of course nowhere in any Jewish texts is there mention of Yoseph ben Mattityahu as anything or anyone. Not as a general, not as a priest, not as a teacher, not as a rabbi, not as a prophet, not as hero and not a a traitor. A composite job of some original writings about the Jews combined with fanciful additions from the Church. I still keep wondering about [Josephus = Eusebius].

07-16-2013, 01:52 PM	#16
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	I guess careful comparison would have to be made with the writings under the name of Yosifon ben Gorion (who is called the brother of Nakdimon/Nikodemis son of Gorion in the Talmud). I cannot vouch for any historical authenticity in the writings attributed to Yosifon, but I guess it's safe to say that the writings under both names contain some genuine material. However, there is much in Josephus itself that is myth and distortion, and most likely the production of the Church, having not a shred of evidence for them. And yet "Josephus" is portrayed as a "witness" to 1st century Judea. I have already mentioned several examples: Massada Yodefata Gamala Herod the Baptist Pilate and Josephus' own alleged credentials in light of the character portraying himself as a loyal Roman subject showing how wonderful life could be.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.