Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 08-22-2013, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ficino

Apologies to anyone who mentioned Mark 14:51. It says that a certain youth had followed Jesus to the Garden of Gethsemane, clad only in a "sindon" over his nakedness (thin cloth - same word as cloth used to wrap jesus' body), and when they laid hold of him, he left the cloth and escaped naked. This is in no other gospel. Morton Smith used it in his argument that Jesus was a "magus" who was conducting an cultic initiation, during which the young man was to have sex with the master. It certainly seems as though writers of the other gospels found this verse "embarrassing." Postulating though that gMark is fiction, does anyone have a clue why this would be in there?

I don't postulate that Mk is fiction, unless you use the term rather loosely. It is a collection of disparate traditional stories organized through redaction. Lots of small things have been omitted from Mk into the other synoptics, usually things that are obscure, such as the Semitic language stuff. Smith certainly had his own ideas about the text, but that doesn't give them validity. Most people find the naked youth obscure, though that doesn't help strengthen Smith's views. It suggests that he was more creative with the material than his peers would have been.

ficino · 08-22-2013, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by ficino

Apologies to anyone who mentioned Mark 14:51. It says that a certain youth had followed Jesus to the Garden of Gethsemane, clad only in a "sindon" over his nakedness (thin cloth - same word as cloth used to wrap jesus' body), and when they laid hold of him, he left the cloth and escaped naked. This is in no other gospel. Morton Smith used it in his argument that Jesus was a "magus" who was conducting an cultic initiation, during which the young man was to have sex with the master. It certainly seems as though writers of the other gospels found this verse "embarrassing." Postulating though that gMark is fiction, does anyone have a clue why this would be in there?

I don't postulate that Mk is fiction, unless you use the term rather loosely. It is a collection of disparate traditional stories organized through redaction. Lots of small things have been omitted from Mk into the other synoptics, usually things that are obscure, such as the Semitic language stuff. Smith certainly had his own ideas about the text, but that doesn't give them validity. Most people find the naked youth obscure, though that doesn't help strengthen Smith's views. It suggests that he was more creative with the material than his peers would have been.

Thanks for the thoughts. Yes, I use "fiction" to mean, not necessarily a "made-up" story created by a single author, but at least a narrative that is all a system of interpretations. I don't know whether there was a historical Jesus.

I took a year-long course from Smith on Palestine in the first cent. CE, focusing on Josephus. Great fun.

aa5874 · 08-22-2013, 01:44 PM

There is no reasonable doubt that gMark is a product of fiction.

The stories of Jesus are not historical accounts and most of them are actually implausible and could NOT have happened even if Jesus did exist.

1. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist he did NOT walk on the sea of Galilee.

2. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist and was baptized there was NO Holy Ghost bird and NO voice from heaven.

3. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist, he did NOT KILL a tree by the roots by cursing it.

4. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist, he did not feed 9000 people with a few pieces of bread and fish.

5. Even if it assumed Jesus did exist, he did NOT calm a sea storm by merely talking to the wind.

6. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist, he did NOT instantly raise the dead by talking to them--the dead can't hear

7. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist, he did NOT make the blind instantly see with Spit.

8. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist, he did NOT instantly make the deaf hear.

9. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist, he did NOT instantly make the lame walk.

10. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist, he did NOT instantly Transfigure.

11. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist, he did NOT resurrect.

12. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist, he cannot return to earth on clouds.

The Jesus story in gMark is a compilation of fiction from baptism to resurrection.

ficino · 08-22-2013, 02:01 PM

aa, do you have a suggestion about what the author of gMark was trying to accomplish with the story of the young man who ran away naked?

aa5874 · 08-22-2013, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ficino

aa, do you have a suggestion about what the author of gMark was trying to accomplish with the story of the young man who ran away naked?

I cannot speculate.

rlogan · 08-22-2013, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

The very reason embarrassment that is implied is the idea that Jesus may have been a mere man seeking forgiveness.

To think Jesus merely a man makes you a non-Christian.

So you can't be a Christian to have this "embarassment". But if you are a non-Christian, it isn't embarassing. Who cares. He's nothing to you.

So it isn't just that the criterion is ridiculous. You can't even make a rational argument that it is embarassing.

Solo · 08-22-2013, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ficino

Apologies to anyone who mentioned Mark 14:51. It says that a certain youth had followed Jesus to the Garden of Gethsemane, clad only in a "sindon" over his nakedness (thin cloth - same word as cloth used to wrap jesus' body), and when they laid hold of him, he left the cloth and escaped naked. This is in no other gospel. Morton Smith used it in his argument that Jesus was a "magus" who was conducting an cultic initiation, during which the young man was to have sex with the master. It certainly seems as though writers of the other gospels found this verse "embarrassing." Postulating though that gMark is fiction, does anyone have a clue why this would be in there?

Mark reverses ironically the day of coming judgment as the arrest of Jesus and the judgment over him. Jesus complains that the men come to arrest him as if he were a robber (lēstēs). This reverses Paul's saying in 1 Th 5:2 'For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief (kleptēs) in the night'. Given that the arrest of Jesus really is a comment on the terrors of the judgment, the young man IMO best fits Malachi 3:2, But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. I am led to this by Mark's paraphrasing the preceding Malachi verse, 3:1, at the start in 1:2 ("Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, who shall prepare thy way;" ) and at the end in 16:6 ("you seek Jesus of Nazareth....").

Best,
Jiri

aa5874 · 08-22-2013, 09:18 PM

The Jesus character was fabricated from Jewish, Roman and Greek mythology.

The authors of the NT Jesus story did admit that the actions and words of their Jesus were written in the Septuagint.

Mark 9:12 KJV

Quote:

And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought .

Mark 14:21 KJV

Quote:

The Son of man indeed goeth , as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed ! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

Without the Septuagint the Jesus character would have said and did NOTHING.

Without the Septuagint the Jesus character would have no "history".

Matthew 1:22 KJV

Quote:

Now all this was done , that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet...

1. Ignatius' Ephesians

Quote:

For our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost.

2. Clement's Corinthians

Quote:

let all the nations know that You are God alone and Jesus Christ Your Son, and we are Your people and the sheep of Your pasture.

3. Justin's Frst Apology" 21

Quote:

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter

4. Aristides' Apology

Quote:

The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man.

5. Irenaeus' Against Heresies 3.21

Quote:

God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us,
giving us the token of the Virgin.

6. Hippolytus Refutation Against ALL Heresies 10

Quote:

The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God.

7. Clement of Alexandria Stromata 5

Quote:

Again, in order that we may know the Father, we must believe in the Son, that it is the Son of God who teaches; for from faith to knowledge by the Son is the Father.

8. Origen's' De Principiis

Quote:

He assumed a body like to our own, differing in this respect only, that it was born of a virgin and of the Holy Spirit...

9. Tertullan's Answer to the Jews

Quote:

He was able to have God for His Father without a human mother, so likewise, after He was born of the virgin, He was able to have a woman for His mother without a human father.

10. Church History 1

Quote:

For none knows the Father except the Son, neither can any one know the Son adequately except the Father alone who has begotten him.

Jesus cult writers in and out the Canon ARGUED for a Mythological Jesus--a Jesus without a human father--a Jesus that was begotten of God--a Jesus of Faith.

The Jesus character in the NT is a product of Mythology.

Grog · 08-22-2013, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The Jesus character was fabricated from Jewish, Roman and Greek mythology.

The authors of the NT Jesus story did admit that the actions and words of their Jesus were written in the Septuagint.

Mark 9:12 KJV

Quote:

And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought .

Right here is the evidence TedM was looking for: evidence that the messiah could be envisioned as suffering. Here we see clearly that this writer relates Jesus Christ to just such a pre-existing figure.

James The Least · 08-23-2013, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

The criterion of embarrassment is a sideshow of the christian circus.

I'm going to steal that line.

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08-22-2013, 01:44 PM	#213
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	There is no reasonable doubt that gMark is a product of fiction. The stories of Jesus are not historical accounts and most of them are actually implausible and could NOT have happened even if Jesus did exist. 1. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist he did NOT walk on the sea of Galilee. 2. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist and was baptized there was NO Holy Ghost bird and NO voice from heaven. 3. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist, he did NOT KILL a tree by the roots by cursing it. 4. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist, he did not feed 9000 people with a few pieces of bread and fish. 5. Even if it assumed Jesus did exist, he did NOT calm a sea storm by merely talking to the wind. 6. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist, he did NOT instantly raise the dead by talking to them--the dead can't hear 7. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist, he did NOT make the blind instantly see with Spit. 8. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist, he did NOT instantly make the deaf hear. 9. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist, he did NOT instantly make the lame walk. 10. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist, he did NOT instantly Transfigure. 11. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist, he did NOT resurrect. 12. Even if it is assumed Jesus did exist, he cannot return to earth on clouds. The Jesus story in gMark is a compilation of fiction from baptism to resurrection.

08-22-2013, 02:01 PM	#214
ficino Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York Posts: 252	aa, do you have a suggestion about what the author of gMark was trying to accomplish with the story of the young man who ran away naked?

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