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Old 10-27-2012, 05:16 PM   #1
Adam
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Default Gospel Eyewitness Sources

For this second pass through of Gospel Eyewitnesses not already listed in Early Aramaic Gospels, the Lucan selections from Special Luke shown bracketed likely were in Aramaic as well, but the Lucan passages from q2 (in regular type) were already in Greek. Ellipses represent filler material. The Marcan passages are from an Ur-Marcus already in Greek before it was taken into Mark or Luke. Similarly, the first 12 chapters here from John are from the Signs Source (by Andrew) already in Greek probably from the first. John 13 and thereafter here I attribute to the Apostle John himself. Certain uniquely Matthean sections are included where the content is paralleled in the Gospel of Thomas or even where the Jesus Seminar affirmed them as from Jesus.
In the first pass I presented
Early Aramaic Gospels
,
ostensibly qT in Mark from the Apostle Matthew as well as q1 itself in Luke from him as well. The selections in John started with Discourses from Nicodemus as the eyewitness, then switched to the Passion Narrative from John Mark as the eyewitness. Now in this second pass I show the Passion Narrative expanded with Peter’s testimony as the Greek Ur-Marcus now shown as in Mark following here, being the verses in which there is verbal exactitude with Luke (or even with John). In Luke I show q2 (possibly from the same origin as Ur-Marcus, as Peter is listed in Luke 12:41, and in brackets I show the unique material in Luke 3 to 24 I attribute to Simeon.

(Revised Standard Version of the Bible, copyright 1952 [2nd edition, 1971] by the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved.)
http://jmom.honlam.org/rsvce/
[Special Luke “L” is marked by intensive Aramaisms, including where this author edited Q1 (not shown because already in the first tier of the early Aramaic eyewitnesses) verses, so stray verses appear separated from their context.]

Matthew 2 (from where Matthew and Luke totally agree):
1 Jesus was born at Bethlehem, in Judea, when Herod was king....23 and settled in a city called Nazareth.
Luke 3:
{5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low, and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God."}

7 [John] said therefore to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. 9 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." 10 And the multitudes asked him, "What then shall we do?"

[11 And he answered them, "He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise." 12 Tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do?" 13 And he said to them, "Collect no more than is appointed you." 14 Soldiers also asked him, "And we, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Rob no one by violence or by false accusation, and be content with your wages." 15 As the people were in expectation, and all men questioned in their hearts concerning John, whether perhaps he were the Christ,]

16* John answered them all, "I baptize you with water; but he who is mightier than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into his granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."

John 1:
S 24 And they were sent from the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him and said to him, “Then why do you baptize if you are not the Christ nor Elijah nor the Prophet?” 26 Answered them John saying, “I baptize in water; in your midst stands one whom you do not know….31 And I did not know him, but in order that he might be manifested to Israel, on account of this I came baptizing in water.”….35 On the morrow John stood and two of his disciples, 36 and looking at Jesus walking, he says, “Behold the Lamb of God.” 37 The two disciples heard him speak and followed Jesus. 38 Jesus turned and…says to them, “What do you seek?” And they said to him, “Rabbi,…where are you staying?” 39 He says to them, “Come and see.” Then they came and saw where he stays, and with him they stayed that day. The hour was about the tenth. 40 One of the two…finds first his own brother Simon and says to him, “We have found the Messiah.”…42 He led him to Jesus. Looking at him, Jesus said, “you are Simon…you shall be called Cephas”…43…And Jesus says to him, “Follow me.” 44 And Philip was from Bethsaida….45…he finds Nathanael and says to him, “Him whom Moses in the law and the prophets wrote, we have found, Jesus, son of Joseph, the one from Nazareth.”…47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him and says about him, “Behold truly an Israelite, in whom there is not guile.”…49…”Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are the King of Israel!”

John 2:
And on the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 And Jesus also was invited to the wedding, and his disciples. 3 And when the wine failed, the mother of Jesus says to him, “They do not have wine.” 4 Jesus says to her, “What (is that) to me and to you?”…5 His mother says to the servants, “Whatever he tells you, do.” 6 And six stone jars were standing there….holding up to two or three measures. 7 Jesus says to them, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them to the top. 8 And he says to them, “Now draw (some) and carry (it) to the headwaiter.” And they carried (it). 9 And… the headwaiter tasted the water having become wine…
11 This beginning of his signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee…and his disciples believed on him. 12 After this he himself went down into Capernaum, and his mother and brothers and his disciples and they stayed there not many days.
13…And Jesus went up into Jerusalem. 14 And he found in the temple those selling cattle and sheep and doves….15 And having made a whip of cords, he cast out all from the temple, both the sheep and the cattle, and poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned the tables. 16 And he said to those selling the doves, “Take these things away from here. Do not make my Father’s house a house of trade.”

John 3:
1 … A man of the Pharisees…came to him at night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you have come (as) a teacher from God. For no one can do these signs which you do unless God is with him.”
[Signs then inserts the discussion available to him from the previously written Discourses.]
22…Jesus came and his disciples into the land Judea, and there he tarried with them and was baptizing….
25 Then there was a dispute by the disciples with a Jew about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, [followed by another insertion, partially from the Discourses, of which verses 31 to 36 are later reflections rather than the words of John].

John 4:
S 1…The Pharisees heard that…3 he left Judea and went away into Galilee. 4 But it was necessary for him to pass through Samaria. 5 Then he comes into a city of Samaria near the piece of land which Jacob gave to his son…. 6 And a spring was there. Then Jesus, having become weary from the journey, sat down thus by the spring. The hour was about the sixth. G 7 A woman of Samaria comes to draw water. Jesus says to her, “Give to me to drink.”… 9 The Samaritan woman says to him, “How do you, being a Jew, ask to drink from me, being a Samaritan woman?” E 10 For Jews do not associate with Samaritans. Answered Jesus and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God and who is the one saying to you, ‘Give me (water)to drink,’ you would have asked him and he would have given to you living water..” G 11 She says to him, “Lord, you do not have a drawing bucket, and the well is deep. Then whence do you have living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave to us the well, and he himself drank from it and his sons and his livestock?”….

S 16 He says to her, “Go, call your husband and come here.” Answered the woman and said…”I do not have a husband.” Jesus says to her, “Rightly you said that ‘I do not have a husband.’ 18 For you have had five husbands, and whom you have now is not your husband. This you said is true.” 19 The woman says to him, “I see that you are a prophet.”
G? 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you say that in Jerusalem is the place where it is necessary to worship.” 21 Jesus says to her, “Believe me, woman, that the hour comes whens neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem you will worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour comes …when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. For such the Father seeks worshiping him.
S 25 The woman says to him, “I know that Messiah comes, the one called Christ; when that one comes, he will announce to us all things.” 26 Jesus says to her, “I am (he), the one speaking to you.” 27 And upon this the disciples came, and they marveled that he was talking with a woman. Nevertheless, no one said, “What do you want:” or “Why are you talking with her?” 28 Then the woman left her water jar and went away into the city and says to men, 29 “Come, see a man who told me all things which I did. Perhaps this is the Christ.”…31 In the meanwhile the disciples were asking him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.” 32 But he said to them, “I have meat to eat which you do not know (I have).” 33 Then the disciples were saying to each other, “Has anyone brought to him (meat) to eat?”

40 Then when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them. And we 47 believe. For we ourselves have heard and we know that this one is truly the Savior of the world.” 43 And after two days he went out from there into Galilee….
S 46…And there was a certain royal official whose son was sick in Capernaum. 47…he went away …that he might come down and heal his son….49 The royal official says to him, “Lord, come down before my little child dies.” 50 Jesus says to him, “Go. Your son lives.”…
51 And already when he went down his servants met him, saying that his son lives. 52 Then he inquired that hour in which he had better (health). They said to him that “Yesterday (at) the seventh hour the fever left him.” 53 Then the father knew that (it was) at that hour in which Jesus said to him, “Your son lives.”….54 … Jesus did this second sign having come from Judea into Galilee.

Luke 4:
14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee, and a report concerning him went out through all the surrounding country. 15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all. 16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up; and he went to the synagogue, as his custom was, on the sabbath day. And he stood up to read; 17 and there was given to him the book of the prophet Isaiah. He opened the book and found the place where it was written, 18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, 19 to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." 20 And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 And he began to say to them, "Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." 22 And all spoke well of him, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth; and they said, "Is not this Joseph's son?" 23 And he said to them, "Doubtless you will quote to me this proverb, 'Physician, heal yourself; what we have heard you did at Caper'na-um, do here also in your own country.'" 24 And he said, "Truly, I say to you, no prophet is acceptable in his own country. 25 But in truth, I tell you, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Eli'jah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when there came a great famine over all the land; 26 and Eli'jah was sent to none of them but only to Zar'ephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. 27 And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of the prophet Eli'sha; and none of them was cleansed, but only Na'aman the Syrian." 28 When they heard this, all in the synagogue were filled with wrath. 29 And they rose up and put him out of the city, and led him to the brow of the hill on which their city was built, that they might throw him down headlong. 30 But passing through the midst of them he went away.
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Old 10-27-2012, 06:19 PM   #2
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More GATWATHCGATA

What a bunch of crap.

There is no such thing as "Gospel Eyewitness Sources" None of this was ever written by any eyewitnesses.
Even the texts themselves never attempt to make any such claim.

There are no such things as "Early Aramaic Gospels". The linguistic evidence clearly indicates that the Gospels were composed in the GREEK language for a GREEK speaking audience.
You cannot present even one certifiably genuine verse of any these imaginary "Early Aramaic Gospels" of yours.

Bombing this Forum with this load of horse shit will not make it true, nor persuade anyone that has even half a brain.
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Old 10-27-2012, 06:27 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar View Post
More GATWATHCGATA

What a bunch of crap.

There is no such thing as "Gospel Eyewitness Sources" None of this was ever written by any eyewitnesses.
Even the texts themselves never attempt to make any such claim.

There are no such things as "Early Aramaic Gospels". The linguistic evidence clearly indicates that the Gospels were composed in the GREEK language for a GREEK speaking audience.
You cannot present even one certifiably genuine verse of any these imaginary "Early Aramaic Gospels" of yours.

Bombing this Forum with this load of horse shit will not make it true, nor persuade anyone that has even half a brain.


gatta agree


you called it how I see it to


you get a green thingy lol
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Old 10-27-2012, 06:33 PM   #4
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I seem to be doing quite well in getting people with half a brain not to agree with me.
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Old 10-27-2012, 06:56 PM   #5
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We all have Bibles, if we don't, we can easily obtain one, or can read one online.

We do not need to be bombarded with these massive blocks of your edited textual chop suey.
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Old 10-27-2012, 07:18 PM   #6
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You prefer Fundamentalist literalism?
My two threads present what I have sorted out as likely from eyewitness written records about Jesus. You would have us give equal credence to what I regard as redactional work in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? Inerrancy or nothing?
Also I "bracket" the Discourses in public in John recorded from an enemy's perspective, requiring greater care in discerning what Jesus said or meant. In addition I acknowledge that eyewitnesses err. With your Fundamentalist inerrancy hang-up, you're worried that anything I quote from Jesus has to be absolutely accurate and a mandate on how to live? I suppose I do need to add here a point I take so much to heart that I don't think to say it--Jesus directed many of his instructions to his immediate disciples only. Nor do his injunctions apply today for those who have not been granted Charismatic Gifts of the Spirit. Most of us cannot live on faith alone (but some can).
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Old 10-27-2012, 08:10 PM   #7
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Once again, we note that Adam offers no credible methodology for his source attributions. Signs source by Andrew? Hahahaha. Evidence please.
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Old 10-27-2012, 08:23 PM   #8
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Not necessarily disclosing the author, but largely related to this section of John is the name “Andrew” at John 1:40, 41, 44; 6:8; 12:22(2). The name “Philip” occurs even more frequently in about the same places and in John 14:8, 9, but I long ago settled on Andrew as a more probable author, particularly when I found out that the Muratorian Canon (usually dated to 170 AD) states that Andrew started out the process of writing John. As a further note I would add that the first occurrence of each name at John 12:22 is shown by Teeple as from the source, so should not be used to claim that the name “Andrew” is not associated exclusively with the Signs Source, even though it falls outside the sections more conclusively identified as Signs Source. Andrew is the second identifiable eyewitness.
(which is the final paragraph from my Post #18 at

Gospel Eyewitnesses

Also from it:
The Signs Source according to W. Nicol is John 1:35-51;xx. 2:1-11;xx. 4:1-9,x. 16-19,v. 27-30,x. 40,ii. 43-54;x. 5:1-9;x. 6:16-25;xv. 9:1-2,iv. 6-7;vii. 11:1-6,vii. 11-17,vii. 33-44;xv. 12:1-8,xii. 12-15.v
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Old 10-27-2012, 08:38 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
You prefer Fundamentalist literalism?
No. If you are going to take up so much space I prefer arguments that have some meat on their bones. Some actual credible evidence that can be likewise determined by anyone else upon close examination of the same texts.
Here you are making sweeping claims that have never been found nor supported by all of the thousands of textual scholars that ever lived and wrote on these subjects. Andrew as the signs source? Nicodemus as a sneaking back-stabbing spy gathering dirt on Jebus?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
but I long ago settled on Andrew
Where in the F are you coming up with this insane shit? Pure imagination, as it sure as hell is not to be found within any of these texts.
That you, -obviously in your inflated egotistical opinion, the greatest textual scholar among all that ever lived, "settled on Andrew" is supposed to impress us?
Who else, that is a known and credentialed scholar has likewise 'settled on Andrew' as being an 'eyewitness' NT author?

You, nor anyone else, cannot supply even one single piece of actual evidence that any Andrew ever wrote even a single word of the NT texts, or even that he was literate, or for that matter, that there ever was any actual Andrew that was other than a briefly mentioned bit character in an old religious horse shit propaganda fable.




.
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Old 10-27-2012, 09:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
I seem to be doing quite well in getting people with half a brain not to agree with me.
adam


its possible that some of these writings had previous sources that were influenced by oral tradition from eye witnesses.

but you are not even coming close to showing us a reasonable case, based on possible aramaic styling in a few phrases.

That doesnt cut it, it only gives a possible geographic origin for unknown sources, at best. And we already know that is plausible
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