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Old 06-25-2013, 08:04 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by semiopen View Post

Haggadah

The guy in Toto's comment probably loses a lot of credibility by using this term improperly.

He's probably searching for Aggadah. Maybe just a simple mistake, but still it's hard to take someone seriously after that.

Jewish Encyclopedia on "Midrash Haggadah"

Quote:
Midrash Haggadah embraces the interpretation, illustration, or expansion, in a moralizing or edifying manner, of the non-legal portions of the Bible (see Haggadah; Midrash; Midrash Halakah). The word "haggadah" (Aramaic, "agada") means primarily the recitation or teaching of Scripture; in a narrower sense it denotes the exegetic amplification of a Biblical passage and the development of a new thought based thereupon.
Maybe the Ha is the definite article however the author's use is not made clear in the article. He makes no reference to Midrash Haggadah.

Since the terms Aggadah and Haggadah are easy to confuse, it seems Midrash Aggadah is used in the vast majority of cases where it comes up.

For example, in Midrash, we see
Quote:
midrash aggada deals with remez and midrash halakha deals with din.
I suspect Haggadah is used mostly by Christian writers who are not worried about confusing their audiences. One would think that it is simpler to use Aggadah since it has one less letter.
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Old 06-30-2013, 09:21 PM   #32
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Many mythicists assert that the gospels are midrashim. How many mythicists have *read* a single midrash (duly note: let's not include gospels in it before we've shown that it has sufficiently many characteristics to be included in the category in the first place!)? How many mythicists that parrot this particular claim know anything about midrashim except what they've heard from other mythicists?
Can you give examples of what you are talking about? Which mythicists? What did they say exactly? Midrash really doesn't play into what I think happened in the evolution of Christianity. If you could give us some quotes or citations I think that would be very helpful. I remember the first I read about midrash being applied to NT writings was in John Shelby Spong's book about the resurrection. That was probably in the early 1990s. I don't believe Spong is a mythicist.
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Old 07-05-2013, 06:20 PM   #33
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So long as everyone understands that midrash refers to the construction of the NT out of the OT, then there shouldn't be any problem with borrowing a technical term from one field and using it in another.

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Old 07-05-2013, 08:01 PM   #34
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I suspect Haggadah is used mostly by Christian writers who are not worried about confusing their audiences. One would think that it is simpler to use Aggadah since it has one less letter.
Both are used in Rabbinic Judaism.
Aggadah [əgəˈda]
n pl Aggadoth [-ˈdɔːt -ˈdəʊt] Judaism
1. (Non-Christian Religions / Judaism)
a. a homiletic passage of the Talmud
b. collectively, the homiletic part of traditional Jewish literature, as contrasted with Halacha, consisting of elaborations on the biblical narratives or tales from the lives of the ancient Rabbis
2. (Non-Christian Religions / Judaism) any traditional homiletic interpretation of scripture Also called Aggadatah [əˈgadəta] Haggadah
[from Hebrew]

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

Ag•ga•dah (əˈgɑ də) also Haggadah

n.
(often l.c.) the nonlegal or narrative material, as parables, maxims, or anecdotes, in the Talmud and other rabbinical literature.
[1880–85; < Hebrew haggādhāh, derivative of higgīdh to narrate]
Ag•gad•ic, ag•gad•ic (əˈgæd ɪk, əˈgɑ dɪk) adj.
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

Haggada, Haggadah, Aggada, Aggadah
1. the explanatory matter in rabbinic and Talmudic literature, interpreting or illustrating the Scriptures.
2. a book in which is printed the liturgy for the Seder service. — haggadic, haggadical, adj.
See also: Judaism
Technically, the Passover Seder is a collection of aggadot (or haggadot), but it has come to be known colloquially as "the Haggadah." Most modern Jews only know the Haggadah as the Seder stories, and afaik in modern Hebrew the two words have non-overlapping meanings, as you stated.

So someone who has studied Rabbinic Judaism (Orthodox or Conservative) might well use the two words interchangeably. just sayin.
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Old 07-07-2013, 06:22 PM   #35
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Many mythicists assert that the gospels are midrashim. How many mythicists have *read* a single midrash (duly note: let's not include gospels in it before we've shown that it has sufficiently many characteristics to be included in the category in the first place!)? How many mythicists that parrot this particular claim know anything about midrashim except what they've heard from other mythicists?

This issue has been on my mind for quite a while, as it seems to me that midrash is becoming a catch-all term for a text whose meaning someone wants to claim is only a metaphor, rather than an actual genre in Judaism.

It would seem to me that the gospels, as far as Jewish genres go, have no (surviving) equivalent in Rabbinic Judaism. I should read up more on the DSS stuff, maybe some stuff there is similar, but those are not generally identified as midrashim.

So, my question is: you mythers here, how many have actually read a bona-fide midrash - Pirke de Eliezer, any of the Midrash Rabbah, Sepher HaYasher, Midrash Tanhuma, Yalkut Shimeoni, ... ?
You appear to me to be confusing the concept of midrash haggadah with specific literary formats through which much midrash is expressed. No big deal, since the same mistake is made by some NT scholars who likewise have a very limited understanding of what midrash actually is. But it would be nice if those who think it is such a big deal were a little more willing to open their minds to grasping this point.

In a series of posts I once wrote addressing this question I relied most heavily on what Jewish scholars, specialists in Jewish literature, had to say about midrash and whether or not the NT gospels can be classified as midrash:
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Old 07-31-2013, 09:21 AM   #36
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I have been interested in knowing how Samaritan tradition addresses the issue of the total silence in all the Tanakh scriptures of the Samuel and Kings about the existence of a separate community worshiping at Mt. Gerizim from the time of a separation of Eli the High Priest, but have never been able to nail down their explanation. I am told that they believe that the northern tribes were divided between followers of the practices of Jeroboam son of Nevat and his successors and followers of Mt. Gerizim, plus some Israelites who practiced paganism of the Canaanites.

However, nowhere in those books of Tanakh is there the slightest mention of a sect worshiping at Mt. Gerizim before the last kings of the northern tribes. In fact, the book of kings explicitly mentions a time when the northern tribes WERE divided between Omri and Tivni for several years (not to mention when Judah/Benjamin were divided between David and Saul and then Mephiboshet.

This suggests that in fact there was no Israelite worshippers who revered Mt. Gerizim instead of Shilo and Jerusalem. The Tanakh regularly mentions those who do not follow the regular path, whether that be the sons of Eli, subsequent leaders and kings, etc.
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