Duvduv

1) Because if "Justin" goes so far as to accept a rabbinical explanation for the identity of the angel as Joshua, then that's who the verse is referring to.
Otherwise it's like claiming that the Book of Samuel hints at Samuel Adams, Samuel Clemens or Sam Houston.

2) I have been thinking alot about this issue, and offer the idea that Justin doesn't necessarily ignore Paul except within the context of trying to prove Jesus from Tanakh prophecies.

aa5874

Speculation and imagination gets us nowhere.

The Pauline writer did not even mention the stories of Jesus found in the writings of Justin.

Justin used the Memoirs of the Apostles for the accounts of the life of Jesus which are not found anywhere in the Pauline Corpus.

And in addition, other Apologetic writers like Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius, Jerome, Chrysostom and others used the Septuagint and the Pauline Corpus simultaneously to show the "TRUTH" of Jesus.

In the time of Justin, there was NO known Pauline Corpus. It was the Memoirs of the Apostles and the books of the Prophets that were read in the Churches. See Justin's First Apology

Duvduv

How can you know what corpus the Justin writer knew about when you do not even have any corroborative evidenc of when this Justin lived, apart from what the Church writers told you?

arnoldo

Justin Martyr appears to make a chronological mistake when he claims that Abraham was circumcised when he gave a tithe to Melchizedek (see Genesis 14: 18-20 ). It wasn't until at least 13 years later (the alleged age of Ishmael) that both Abraham and Ishmael were circumcised (see Genesis 17 ).

The chronology of Abraham's circumcision is also a concern for the Apostle Paul in Romans 4:9-12. In the passage, Paul states that Abraham was not circumcised when he was justified by faith. Genesis 15:1-6 does in fact support Paul's claim that Abraham was justified by faith before he was circumcised.

Trypho's response to Justin's argument can perhaps be summed up in the following sentence attributed to him.

. . . For you utter many blasphemies, in that you seek to persuade us that this crucified man was with Moses and Aaron, and spoke to them in the pillar of the cloud; then that he became man, was crucified, and ascended up to heaven, and comes again to earth, and ought to be worshipped."

Duvduv

That's very interesting. I wonder if there was a translation error rather than an original chronological error since it is so clear that Abraham visited Melchizedek before the circumcision. I also wonder why Trypho forgets to mention resurrection....

aa5874

What an illogical statement!!! What double standard!!! You yourself just made references to the writings of Justin and claimed as a fact that "Justin was trying to prove the TRUTH of Jesus DIRECTLY from Tanakh prophecies".

How in the world did you GET YOUR "facts" about Justin?

Duvduv

Oy vey......Herst a mayseh..........
I simply said that you cannot know what "Justin" knew about the corpus since you can not even determine when the Justin texts were written........
THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONTENT OF THE TEXT ITSELF, which is what I also was addressing when discussing the nature of the content itself.....

Duvduv

It is also possible that "Justin" didn't mean that Abraham was already circumcised, but that in contrast to Melchizedek he was to be the circumcised forefather of the Jews. "Justin's" line of argument is rather ironic because the Midrash Rabbah says that Melchizedek was BORN circumcised (just like Moses), AND the Talmud explains that Melchizedek (Shem) LOST the priesthood as a punishment for blessing Abraham BEFORE blessing God, and thus the priesthood was transferred to the descendants of Abraham.

The Seder Hadorot chronology says that the year Abraham met Melchizedek Abraham was 75, and of course his circumcision (which follows later in the Torah) with Ishmael was at the age of 99, which was 24 years later.

aa5874

You have openly contradicted yourself by claiming it is a fact "Justin was trying to prove the TRUTH of Jesus DIRECTLY from Tanakh prophecies".

Did you get your "facts" about Justin from "what the Church writers told you"?

Examine you own post. I had enough of your double standard.

Duvduv

Can anyone explain to me what aa5874 is saying??