Duvduv

The custom of a formal bar-mitzvah observance around one's 13th birthday became commonplace just over 1000 years ago.
See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_and...itzvah#History

aa5874

It is clear to me that you have some kind of Greek problem. I referred to an English version of the "Infancy Gospel of Thomas" where it is claimed Jesus was literate before he was taught letters and that his teacher claimed Jesus did not belong on this earth.

I did not claim to know Greek or was involved in the translation.

See http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...s-roberts.html

You yourself make references to sources in some languages and then afterwards show them in English. You seem to be implying that the English version of Infancy story is defective.

The stories about Jesus is that he was already literate before he was taught letters and that his teacher claimed that Jesus did not belong to this earth.

Infancy Gospel of Thomas The literacy rates in Jerusalem in any century is really irrelevant to the Jesus character and story.

The Jesus character did not belong to this earth in or out the Canon. His "literacy" is beyond human comprehension.

Jeffrey Gibson

I have no problem with Greek. But apparently you do.

It may be (the translation is certainly out dated). That's why we need to see the Greek text.

Actually, all it says is that he showed a capacity for learning (παιδιον φρονιμοuν εξεις και νοuν εξει = a bright child with a good mind), not that he was already literate. If not, why then does Zacchaeus offer, as he does to teach Jesus his letters (δευρω παραδος μοι αuτο οπως μαθε γραμματα = hand him over to me so that he may learn his letters) if it was apparent that he already knew them?

Sorry, but contrary to what you apparently think this text is saying, the "He" in "he said to him" is Zacchaeus, not Jesus.

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson

Quotes', please.


But where specifically in Josephus, where specifically in the voluminous writings of Jimmy Dunn, where specifically in the Talmud do we find the blanket statements about Jewish attitudes towards teaching reading that you mentioned you read?

Of course??? So you haven't actually read Josephus and what he says on the matters at hand, or Dunn, or the Talmud? -- just what the Wiki article quotes or summarizing these sources as saying? You don't really know if the Talmud and Josephus and Dunn do actually make "blanket" statements?

If this is the case, why should I -- or anyone here -- take anything you say seriously, let alone as really informed -- as you apparently want us to, especially given the way posture as one who is more in the know than many others here

Edit

Jeffrey

aa5874

Again, I have not stated that I know Greek or was involved in the translation. Even if you have no problem with Greek I would not be able to confirm.
I don't even know if there are typographical errors in those languages you present.

What you say does not make much sense because English is not outdated and the text itself that was translated is not expected to have changed.

Please, identify what is outdated or what would change if the same text is translated to English today.

Please, read the story first because you seem completely unaware what the Infancy Gospel of Thomas states.

The Child Jesus was far more literate and had far more knowledge of letters than his own teacher.

You have got to read the other sentences. Read the story first. Did you read this?

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas The literacy of the Child Jesus did not require a teacher.

In the End the teacher declared that the Child Jesus did not belong to this earth.

It is docunmented in the Infancy of the Gospel of Thomas

English is not outdated.

Infancy Gospel of Thomas The literacy of Jesus did not require an earthly teacher.

outhouse

Not always

Its a socioeconomic cultural status, that changes from one geographic location to the next, more so then a job description.

Agrarian farmers? sure, why not.


Probably not. Bought into a cooperation is more likely


Are we relying on gospels like a apologetic?

Was not the fishing business ran by the government bid on and boats rented out at this time.

Were these unknown gospel authors from Galilee writing during the period in question, or many decades after the fact from another part of the Levant?

There is a possibility that one could be a boat owner, but it wasnt the norm.

Nope.


It makes a case for a limited amount of arithmetic though. One could know a few words and still be considered illiterate.



Again, probably not. Someone is placing to much emphasis on the reliability and historicity of the unknown gospel authors to assume such.

Per Reed and Crossan, the Galilean fishermen at this time lived lives below that of the common peasant.

Here is Hansons take.

http://www.magdalaproject.org/WP/?p=...switch_lang=en


5. If there were not a sufficient number of family members in the cooperative, the fishermen had to hire laborers to help with all the responsibilities: manning the oars and sails, mending nets, sorting fish, etc. These laborers represent the bottom of the social scale in the fishing sub-system.

I conclude that both of these groups were “peasants” in the broad sense, since they both live from their work in the boats. The hired laborers are in a more precarious position because their work was likely seasonal; but that does not make the members of the fishing cooperative “middle class” entrepreneurs (45-63)


(“The Satire on the Trades”; trans. Wilson1969:433-43; also Plautus, Rudens 290-305 for fishers as low status).

outhouse

I would posit we bury the hatchet despite my grammar skills.


Its quite normal for the best scholars to argue inanely, but were the only two here fighting on the same side of the coin here against the methodology of the majority of Mythicist here.

Jeffrey Gibson

Perhaps I'm missing something. I'm looking at their Excavating Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk) and I don't see them saying any such thing? What page doesd this claim appear on. If it's elsewhere, what book and what page?

Jeffrey

Toto

Getting back to the question of whether Jesus was literate, it seems this is just another case where the issue is how much history the gospels contain.

Is there any reason to think that the story of Jesus reading the Torah in the synagogue is historical? If it is, is there any reason to think that the story that Jesus was a carpenter, or that his followers were fishermen, were historical? Are these stories any more likely to be historically based than the stories about Jesus as a child killing his playmate and bringing him back to life?

Do oppressed peasants start sophisticated new religions, or is that a marxist fantasy?

outhouse

No they don't.

Its my opinion Jesus died before anything got started.

Its my belief ATM that resurrection traditions started before Passover was even over.

Not like it states in any sense. Joseph A could have stated "ya I put the body in that tomb over yonder", when the body actually hit a pit.

A spiritual resurrection could have been perverted into a physical.

Someone could have hid the body on purpose to further the martyrdom if a jesus character went in knowing full well he was playing with fire, and doing what he was going to do would end up as suicide.

And yes lies in general.


What is unique here is how the movement did not grow at all in Judaism, but how the door of Judaism was opened up for Proselytes and Gentiles, whether Jesus was real or not.