Freethought & Rationalism Archive

James The Least · 06-18-2013, 10:29 PM

Dialogue with Trypho.

CHAPTER LXXV -- IT IS PROVED THAT JESUS WAS THE NAME OF GOD IN THE BOOK OF EXODUS.

"Moreover, in the book of Exodus, we have also perceived that the name of God Himself which, He says, was not revealed to Abraham or to Jacob, was Jesus, and was declared mysteriously through Moses. Thus it is written: 'And the Lord spake to Moses, Say to this people, Behold, I send My angel before thy face, to keep thee in the way, to bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee. Give heed to Him, and obey Him; do not disobey Him. For He will not draw back from you; for My name is in Him.'

"Now understand that He who led your fathers into the land is called by this name Jesus, and first called Auses(Oshea). For if you shall understand this, you shall likewise perceive that the name of Him who said to Moses, 'for My name is in Him,' was Jesus. For, indeed, He was also called Israel, and Jacob's name was changed to this also. Now Isaiah shows that those prophets who are sent to publish tidings from God are called His angels and apostles. For Isaiah says in a certain place, 'Send me.' And that the prophet whose name was changed, Jesus [Joshua], was strong and great, is manifest to all. If, then, we know that God revealed Himself in so many forms to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, how are we at a loss, and do not believe that, according to the will of the Father of all things, it was possible for Him to be born man of the Virgin, especially after we have such Scriptures, from which it can be plainly perceived that He became so according to the will of the Father?"

Of course. It all makes sense now.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...guetrypho.html

MrMacSon · 06-19-2013, 04:08 AM

This is intriguing

Quote:

CHAPTER XVIII -- CHRISTIANS WOULD OBSERVE THE LAW, IF THEY DID NOT KNOW WHY IT WAS INSTITUTED.

"For since you have read, O Trypho, as you yourself admitted, the doctrines taught by our Saviour, I do not think that I have done foolishly in adding some short utterances of His to the prophetic statements."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...guetrypho.html

MrMacSon · 06-19-2013, 04:21 AM

and this

Quote:

CHAPTER CXXXII -- HOW GREAT THE POWER WAS OF THE NAME OF JESUS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.

"Yet after this you made a calf, and were very zealous in committing fornication with the daughters of strangers, and in serving idols. And again, when the land was given up to you with so great a display of power, that you witnessed the sun stand still in the heavens by the order of that man whose name was Jesus (Joshua), and not go down for thirty-six hours, as well as all the other miracles which were wrought for you as time served; and of these it seems good to me now to speak of another, for it conduces to your hereby knowing Jesus, whom we also know to have been Christ the Son of God, who was crucified, and rose again, and ascended to heaven, and will come again to judge all men, even up to Adam himself. You are aware, then," I continued, "that when the ark of the testimony was seized by the enemies of Ashdod, and a terrible and incurable malady had broken out among them, they resolved to place it on a cart to which they yoked cows that had recently calved, for the purpose of ascertaining by trial whether or not they had been plagued by God's power on account of the ark, and if God wished it to be taken back to the place from which it had been carried away. And when they had done this, the cows, led by no man, went not to the place whence the ark had been taken, but to the fields of a certain man whose name was Oshea, the same as his whose name was altered to Jesus (Joshua), as has been previously mentioned, who also led the people into the land and meted it out to them: and when the cows had come into these fields they remained there, showing to you thereby that they were guided by the name of power; just as formerly the people who survived of those that came out of Egypt, were guided into the land by him who had received the name Jesus (Joshua), who before was called Oshea.

Duvduv · 06-19-2013, 09:03 AM

We find so many poorly discussed matters in the writings of Justin, and this reference to Exodus 23:20 is surely one of them. The Rabbis explained that the angel referred to is Metatron, and other commentaries identify the "angel" as a messenger who is simply Joshua son of Nun. How this "Justin" gets his convoluted understanding that this refers to Jesus is beyond me.

aa5874 · 06-19-2013, 09:18 AM

Eusebius did state the sons of Hebrews did find fault with Christians' interpretation of Hebrew Scripture.

Eusebius' Preparation of the Gospel

Quote:

But sons of the Hebrews also would find fault with us, that being strangers and aliens we misuse their books, which do not belong to us at all, and because in an impudent and shameless way, as they would say, we thrust ourselves in, and try violently to thrust out the true family and kindred from their own ancestral rights.

For if there was a Christ divinely foretold, they were Jewish prophets who proclaimed His advent, and also announced that He would come as Redeemer and King of the Jews, and not of alien nations: or, if the Scriptures contain any more joyful tidings, it is to Jews, they say, that these also are announced, and we do not well to misunderstand them.

Toto · 06-19-2013, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

We find so many poorly discussed matters in the writings of Justin, and this reference to Exodus 23:20 is surely one of them. The Rabbis explained that the angel referred to is Metatron, and other commentaries identify the "angel" as a messenger who is simply Joshua son of Nun. How this "Justin" gets his convoluted understanding that this refers to Jesus is beyond me.

"Joshua" in the Hebrew scriptures was translated as "Iesous" = "Jesus" in the Septuagint. There is a long history of Christians connecting Joshua and Jesus.

There are even critics who believe that the early Christians created the gospel Jesus from Joshua, based on midrash of the Hebrew Scriptures.

stephan huller · 06-19-2013, 09:38 AM

I've been talking about this forever. Jesus is one of the gods of the old Jewish pantheon (= Philo). Marcion thought this. Clement too. The problem with "mythicists" is they have no discipline. This is Jewish mythopoeisis or at least the mythopoeisis of a Jewish author (= Paul).

As I have been saying more recently, Paul probably developed a pre-existent story about a crucified Judas made "a twin" of this visiting cosmic Man incorporating Enochic myths about the Man (Ish) as IS in his original gospel manuscript which was disguised (evasively) as "IesouS"

Duvduv · 06-19-2013, 10:30 AM

That the "angel" is Joshua son of Nun is rooted in rabbinical sources.........so "Justin" must have latched on to something from those Pharisees. On the other hand the assertion that the Joshua of the Torah and book under his name is a reference to Jesus is a stretch even for someone like "Justin".
Incidentally, it occurred to me that the fact that Paul is missing from the Dialogue may simply be a function of the fact that Justin was trying to prove the truth of Jesus directly from Tanakh prophecies, so introducing Paul would have been pointless in the context of such an argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

We find so many poorly discussed matters in the writings of Justin, and this reference to Exodus 23:20 is surely one of them. The Rabbis explained that the angel referred to is Metatron, and other commentaries identify the "angel" as a messenger who is simply Joshua son of Nun. How this "Justin" gets his convoluted understanding that this refers to Jesus is beyond me.

"Joshua" in the Hebrew scriptures was translated as "Iesous" = "Jesus" in the Septuagint. There is a long history of Christians connecting Joshua and Jesus.

There are even critics who believe that the early Christians created the gospel Jesus from Joshua, based on midrash of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Toto · 06-19-2013, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

... On the other hand the assertion that the Joshua of the Torah and book under his name is a reference to Jesus is a stretch even for someone like "Justin".

Why so?

Quote:

Incidentally, it occurred to me that the fact that Paul is missing from the Dialogue may simply be a function of the fact that Justin was trying to prove the truth of Jesus directly from Tanakh prophecies, so introducing Paul would have been pointless in the context of such an argument.

I think you are on to something there.

Chili · 06-19-2013, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

That the "angel" is Joshua son of Nun is rooted in rabbinical sources.........so "Justin" must have latched on to something from those Pharisees. On the other hand the assertion that the Joshua of the Torah and book under his name is a reference to Jesus is a stretch even for someone like "Justin".
Incidentally, it occurred to me that the fact that Paul is missing from the Dialogue may simply be a function of the fact that Justin was trying to prove the truth of Jesus directly from Tanakh prophecies, so introducing Paul would have been pointless in the context of such an argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

We find so many poorly discussed matters in the writings of Justin, and this reference to Exodus 23:20 is surely one of them. The Rabbis explained that the angel referred to is Metatron, and other commentaries identify the "angel" as a messenger who is simply Joshua son of Nun. How this "Justin" gets his convoluted understanding that this refers to Jesus is beyond me.

"Joshua" in the Hebrew scriptures was translated as "Iesous" = "Jesus" in the Septuagint. There is a long history of Christians connecting Joshua and Jesus.

There are even critics who believe that the early Christians created the gospel Jesus from Joshua, based on midrash of the Hebrew Scriptures.

It goes without saying that if Christ is the end and Jesus is the way to that end, the names Jesus and Christ belong together wherein Jesus is 'second Adam' here now to go past on the way back to Eden again.

Just look at the lineage in Luke where it goes past all the greats of Judaism and then goes past Adam right back to God (oh, and maybe say 'thank you' to Jesus on the way past (just to be sure that Jesus is not 'it')).

06-18-2013, 10:29 PM	#1
James The Least Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: USA Posts: 393	Justin Martyr - YHWH was called "Jesus" in Exodus Dialogue with Trypho. CHAPTER LXXV -- IT IS PROVED THAT JESUS WAS THE NAME OF GOD IN THE BOOK OF EXODUS. "Moreover, in the book of Exodus, we have also perceived that the name of God Himself which, He says, was not revealed to Abraham or to Jacob, was Jesus, and was declared mysteriously through Moses. Thus it is written: 'And the Lord spake to Moses, Say to this people, Behold, I send My angel before thy face, to keep thee in the way, to bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee. Give heed to Him, and obey Him; do not disobey Him. For He will not draw back from you; for My name is in Him.' "Now understand that He who led your fathers into the land is called by this name Jesus, and first called Auses(Oshea). For if you shall understand this, you shall likewise perceive that the name of Him who said to Moses, 'for My name is in Him,' was Jesus. For, indeed, He was also called Israel, and Jacob's name was changed to this also. Now Isaiah shows that those prophets who are sent to publish tidings from God are called His angels and apostles. For Isaiah says in a certain place, 'Send me.' And that the prophet whose name was changed, Jesus [Joshua], was strong and great, is manifest to all. If, then, we know that God revealed Himself in so many forms to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, how are we at a loss, and do not believe that, according to the will of the Father of all things, it was possible for Him to be born man of the Virgin, especially after we have such Scriptures, from which it can be plainly perceived that He became so according to the will of the Father?" Of course. It all makes sense now. http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...guetrypho.html

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06-19-2013, 09:03 AM	#4
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	We find so many poorly discussed matters in the writings of Justin, and this reference to Exodus 23:20 is surely one of them. The Rabbis explained that the angel referred to is Metatron, and other commentaries identify the "angel" as a messenger who is simply Joshua son of Nun. How this "Justin" gets his convoluted understanding that this refers to Jesus is beyond me.

06-19-2013, 09:38 AM	#7
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I've been talking about this forever. Jesus is one of the gods of the old Jewish pantheon (= Philo). Marcion thought this. Clement too. The problem with "mythicists" is they have no discipline. This is Jewish mythopoeisis or at least the mythopoeisis of a Jewish author (= Paul). As I have been saying more recently, Paul probably developed a pre-existent story about a crucified Judas made "a twin" of this visiting cosmic Man incorporating Enochic myths about the Man (Ish) as IS in his original gospel manuscript which was disguised (evasively) as "IesouS"

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