Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Cheerful Charlie · 06-17-2013, 10:58 AM

I ran across a gross mistranslation in the NIV that I find interesting.

1 Chronicles 20

New International Version (NIV)
The Capture of Rabbah

20 In the spring, at the time when kings go off to war, Joab led out the armed forces. He laid waste the land of the Ammonites and went to Rabbah and besieged it, but David remained in Jerusalem. Joab attacked Rabbah and left it in ruins. 2 David took the crown from the head of their king[a]—its weight was found to be a talent[b] of gold, and it was set with precious stones—and it was placed on David’s head. He took a great quantity of plunder from the city 3 and brought out the people who were there, consigning them to labor with saws and with iron picks and axes. David did this to all the Ammonite towns. Then David and his entire army returned to Jerusalem.

1 Chronicles 20

King James Version (KJV)

20 And it came to pass, that after the year was expired, at the time that kings go out to battle, Joab led forth the power of the army, and wasted the country of the children of Ammon, and came and besieged Rabbah. But David tarried at Jerusalem. And Joab smote Rabbah, and destroyed it.

2 And David took the crown of their king from off his head, and found it to weigh a talent of gold, and there were precious stones in it; and it was set upon David's head: and he brought also exceeding much spoil out of the city.

3 And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon. And David and all the people returned to Jerusalem.

I have long read complaints about the NIV's sloppiness and poor quality scholarship, but this is truly beyond the pale. A quick check of several translations shows NIV alone translates 1 Chronicles 20;2 this way.

I have long ignored the NIV, now I have good reason to avoid it totally. And any argument I ever get into that the other person disputes with me will be sure to check any Bible quote coming from NIV that that person relies on. The NIV is unreliable and apparently not particularly honest.

Other Bible translations to avoid, The Good News Bible that is known to be rewritten in parts to support conservative theological positions.

:angry:

Cheerful Charlie

andrewcriddle · 06-17-2013, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie

I ran across a gross mistranslation in the NIV that I find interesting.

1 Chronicles 20

New International Version (NIV)
The Capture of Rabbah

20 In the spring, at the time when kings go off to war, Joab led out the armed forces. He laid waste the land of the Ammonites and went to Rabbah and besieged it, but David remained in Jerusalem. Joab attacked Rabbah and left it in ruins. 2 David took the crown from the head of their king[a]—its weight was found to be a talent[b] of gold, and it was set with precious stones—and it was placed on David’s head. He took a great quantity of plunder from the city 3 and brought out the people who were there, consigning them to labor with saws and with iron picks and axes. David did this to all the Ammonite towns. Then David and his entire army returned to Jerusalem.

1 Chronicles 20

King James Version (KJV)

20 And it came to pass, that after the year was expired, at the time that kings go out to battle, Joab led forth the power of the army, and wasted the country of the children of Ammon, and came and besieged Rabbah. But David tarried at Jerusalem. And Joab smote Rabbah, and destroyed it.

2 And David took the crown of their king from off his head, and found it to weigh a talent of gold, and there were precious stones in it; and it was set upon David's head: and he brought also exceeding much spoil out of the city.

3 And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon. And David and all the people returned to Jerusalem.

I have long read complaints about the NIV's sloppiness and poor quality scholarship, but this is truly beyond the pale. A quick check of several translations shows NIV alone translates 1 Chronicles 20;2 this way.

I have long ignored the NIV, now I have good reason to avoid it totally. And any argument I ever get into that the other person disputes with me will be sure to check any Bible quote coming from NIV that that person relies on. The NIV is unreliable and apparently not particularly honest.

Other Bible translations to avoid, The Good News Bible that is known to be rewritten in parts to support conservative theological positions.

:angry:

Cheerful Charlie

There is a list of translations at 1_chronicles/20-3 plus some commentaries. There are other translations that agree with the NIV eg the English Standard version.

The issue is that taken literally the passage in Chronicles refers to a massacre. However the parallel passage in 2 Samuel 12 seems to refer to forced labour.

Quote:

KJV And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brick-kiln: and thus did he to all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned to Jerusalem.
ESV And he brought out the people who were in it and set them to labor with saws and iron picks and iron axes and made them toil at the brick kilns. And thus he did to all the cities of the Ammonites. Then David and all the people returned to Jerusalem.

(It is just possible to take 2 Samuel 12 as it stands as referring to a masascre rather than forced labour but this seems unlikely.)

There are only small differences between the Hebrew in the 2 passages and one of the passages seems to be a corruption of the other. It could be that both originally referred to a massacre but it is more likely that Samuel preserves the original which has been corrupted in Chronicles.

Andrew Criddle

Iskander · 06-17-2013, 12:47 PM

And the Oxford annotated Bible also agrees with the NIV.

The New Oxford Annotated Bible, Augmented 3rd edition, OUP, 2007, ISBN 978195288803

1 Chronicles 20:3, “and set them to work with saws and iron picks and axes.”

semiopen · 06-17-2013, 02:41 PM

Nonetheless the translation seems wrong.

Rabbah

Quote:

David was guilty of that deed of shame which left a blot on his character and cast a gloom over the rest of his life. At length, having taken the "royal city" (or the "city of waters," 2 Sam. 12:27, i.e., the lower city on the river, as distinguished from the citadel), Joab sent for David to direct the final assault (11:1; 12:26-31). The city was given up to plunder, and the people were put to death, and "thus did he with all the cities of the children of Ammon." The destruction of Rabbath was the last of David's conquests. The crown of the king of Rabbah became David's crown. His kingdom now reached its farthest limits (2 Sam. 8:1-15; 1 Chr. 18:1-15). The capture of this city is referred to in Amos (1:14), Jeremiah (49:2, 3), and Ezekiel (21:20; 25:5).

The translators probably just wanted to make Yoshke's ancestor a little less viscious, even if it was against the Ammonites.

semiopen · 06-17-2013, 02:52 PM

Ezekiel 25 was made famous in Pulp Fiction

Quote:

I will make Rabbah a pasture for camels and Ammon a place for sheep to lie down. And you shall know that I am the LORD. (Eze 25:5 TNK)

It is pretty ridiculous to suggest that they put the people to work making horseshoes.

Iskander · 06-17-2013, 03:57 PM

As someone has said recently, “translations are never exact” .Honest people could disagree and remain honest and competent professionals.

If someone has deliberately chosen a particular translation over the more accurate one, then the reason for this choice must be the result of regretting the past and hoping for a different future, rather than egoism.

Regretting this sad past,

Church window of St. John's Church in Werben/ Elbe River, Germany (around 1414-1467)

Quote:

In the left section of the window the Church is riding a tetramorph (a creature with the heads of eagle, human, lion and bull, symbolizing the four Gospels). She holds the flag of the cross and the chalice in her hands. The divine hand from heaven places a crown on her head.
In the right section the Synagogue is depicted as riding a donkey which is about to break down. In her right hand she holds the head of a he-goat. Her crown is falling. She is blindfolded. The staff of her flag is broken. But worst of all, the divine hand from heaven pierces her head and body with the sword of judgment

.
http://www.sprezzatura.it/Arte/Eccle...a/res/art1.htm

And hoping for a better future for all,

Jews, Catholics bid farewell to Jewish-born French cardinal
http://www.haaretz.com/news/jews-cat...dinal-1.227205

Quote:

Lustiger's faith remained complex throughout his life - he never rejected his Jewish identity, and the multifaith funeral appeared to be a symbol of that.
He always claimed he was still a Jew, which caused a certain amount of anxiety and concern within parts of the Jewish community, said Rev. John T. Pawlikowski, president of the International Council of Christians and Jews.
"It is highly unusual for the Mourner's Kaddish to be read among mourners for a convert from Judaism," said Rabbi Joel Roth, an expert on Jewish law at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America in New York

06-17-2013, 10:58 AM	#1
Cheerful Charlie Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 3,884	NIV Mistanslations I ran across a gross mistranslation in the NIV that I find interesting. 1 Chronicles 20 New International Version (NIV) The Capture of Rabbah 20 In the spring, at the time when kings go off to war, Joab led out the armed forces. He laid waste the land of the Ammonites and went to Rabbah and besieged it, but David remained in Jerusalem. Joab attacked Rabbah and left it in ruins. 2 David took the crown from the head of their king[a]—its weight was found to be a talent[b] of gold, and it was set with precious stones—and it was placed on David’s head. He took a great quantity of plunder from the city 3 and brought out the people who were there, consigning them to labor with saws and with iron picks and axes. David did this to all the Ammonite towns. Then David and his entire army returned to Jerusalem. 1 Chronicles 20 King James Version (KJV) 20 And it came to pass, that after the year was expired, at the time that kings go out to battle, Joab led forth the power of the army, and wasted the country of the children of Ammon, and came and besieged Rabbah. But David tarried at Jerusalem. And Joab smote Rabbah, and destroyed it. 2 And David took the crown of their king from off his head, and found it to weigh a talent of gold, and there were precious stones in it; and it was set upon David's head: and he brought also exceeding much spoil out of the city. 3 And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon. And David and all the people returned to Jerusalem. I have long read complaints about the NIV's sloppiness and poor quality scholarship, but this is truly beyond the pale. A quick check of several translations shows NIV alone translates 1 Chronicles 20;2 this way. I have long ignored the NIV, now I have good reason to avoid it totally. And any argument I ever get into that the other person disputes with me will be sure to check any Bible quote coming from NIV that that person relies on. The NIV is unreliable and apparently not particularly honest. Other Bible translations to avoid, The Good News Bible that is known to be rewritten in parts to support conservative theological positions. :angry: Cheerful Charlie

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06-17-2013, 12:47 PM	#3
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	And the Oxford annotated Bible also agrees with the NIV. The New Oxford Annotated Bible, Augmented 3rd edition, OUP, 2007, ISBN 978195288803 1 Chronicles 20:3, “and set them to work with saws and iron picks and axes.”

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