Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 03-20-2013, 01:46 PM

Some off topic posts, including all the Chili posts, have been split off here

stephan huller · 03-20-2013, 03:37 PM

tanya

the same thing happens with the targums. if you haven't noticed when ancient texts are translated into English no two translations are the same. Learn another language and you'll understand.

indeed English translations of ancient texts are generally quite literal when compared with parallel French translations. I don't understand your question or your problem but its an issue you and aa have had forever.

There's a German word - Sprachgefühl - which sums up that special sense which allows us to render the underlying sense of words and phrases from one language to another (= "feeling for a language). A sentence is more than the sum of its parts.

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-20-2013, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

That's not the question Jeffrey. The question is how does LXX, codex sinaiticus, version of Psalm 96:5 subvert, or, if you dislike that English word, "alter", the ORIGINAL text, found in the Masoretic text, or DSS?

Ah but it is the question since your assumptions (1) that the MT represents the original Hebrew more faithfully than what we find in the LXX, (2) that Greek speaking Jews did nor think that Kurios was an acceptable and legitimate translation equivalent for Yahweh, let alone did not employ it as such when they translated the Hebrew text of the OT into Greek, and (3) that δαιμόνιον (not δαίμων) was not regarded by Greek speaking Jews as a legitimate translation equivalent for אֱלִילִ֑ים is rank peititio principii.

Quote:

The LXX is corrupt, in my view. If you wish to convince me to the contrary, it is simple:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Dated primary sources, please!

The ball is in your court, Jeffrey. All you have to do, to prove me wrong, is provide a single illustration from DSS, showing that the folks living in Qumran, in 50 CE, (writing in Hebrew, or, alternatively, storing documents, written elsewhere, in the caves nearby), DID alter the text from the one which we call today, Masoretic.

How could they alter a text that had not yet come into existence?

But if you are asking whether there is evidence that the DSS and pre-vaticanus LXX witnesses show that what we find in the MT may not have originally been what the MT attests to, see here

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_...-Deut32-BS.htm

which shows that the MT has corrupted what Deut. 32:8 originally said (and incidentally shows that the idea that the writers of the OT did think of those mentioned in Ps. 96 -- the gods of the nations -- as demons).

You should also look at such discussions of how the DSS (among which were pre Vaticanus LXX texts) show that the LXX preserves a better text of a variety of OT readings than the MT text does as Emanuel Tov's "The Qumran Hebrew Texts and the Septuagint – An Overview" to be found at

http://www.emanueltov.info/docs/vari...d-sept.pdfdoes

Quote:

I claim that Psalm 96:5, in the original Hebrew, made no reference to "demons",

On what basis? Do you know for a fact that אֱלִילִ֑ים was never used in Hebrew, let alone in the OT, with the meaning of "evil spirit"? What Hebrew lexicons and reference works have you consulted to affirm the validity of this claim? Did you look in Brown Driver Briggs or the article in the TDOT on אֱלִילִ֑ים? Are you actually speaking from a truly informed position?

Quote:

and therefore, insertion of the word, demons, in the text of LXX, constitutes forgery.

OK, leaving aside how the use of the word forgery with its connotations of intentional fraud begs the question -- why not "mistranslation?"), please tell me what the Greek word was which originally appeared in the LXX of Ps. 96:5 as the translation equivalent of אֱלִילִ֑ים ? What was the original LXX text of this verse?

Jeffrey

mountainman · 03-20-2013, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

In this case, it would appear, unless anyone can raise any objections, that the Christians reappropriated the term from the Greek philosophical and literary traditions.

Objections? Have a look at the use of [SIZE=3]δαιμόνιον, ου, τό

Hello Jeffrey,

As has been pointed out a number of times the OP is specifically about the use of daimon" [δαίμων] and not its derivative(s).

Quote:

You speak of your researches into this word. Have they included a look at the entry on δαίμων, δαιμόνιον, δαιμονίζομαι, δαιμονιώδης, δεισιδαίμων, δεισιδαιμονία in the TDNT (especially section A: δαίμων in the Greek and Hellenistic World and the discussion of the (alleged) difference between δαίμων andδαιμόνιον in subsection 5. "Demon Terminology in the Greek and Hellenistic World as well as the notes there on the influence of Popular Religion on the Philosophical Systems of the Hellenistic world)?

(as is clear to those reading this, the answer is no)

My notes from this source are as follows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDNT

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Volume 1
edited by Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, Geoffrey William Bromily

p.137

D

daimon [demon, divinity],
daimonion [demonic],
daimonizomai [to be demon-possessed],
daimonides [demonic],
deisidaimon [religion],
deisidaimonia [fear of divinity]

daimon, daimonion.

A. daimon in the Greek and Hellenistic World.

1. A persistent animism, which even educated circles had to recognise,
underlay the "daimon" concept in the Greek world. The "daimon" can be
a deity or minor deity but may also be given a philosophical sense.
The etymology and original meaning of the term "daimon" are uncertain.

2. daimon as a Term for Gods and Divine Powers. Various senses may be noted
in this field: a) "god", b) "lesser deity", c) "unknown superhuman factor",
d) "what overtakes us", e.g. death, or good or evil fortune, e) "protective
deity", and in Stoicism f) "the divinely related element in us", e.g. "nous"
or conscience. Stars can also be called daimones.

3. The Influence of Popular Religion in Philosophical Systems.
While philosophy interpretted daimon as general divine power, it also
introduced daimones as personal intermediaries. Heroes and daimones
are akin, and daimones also serve as messengers, supervisors and mediators.
Under the influence of populkar belief they are related especially to magic,
to misfortune, and to possession. They are also regarded as spatial
(especially evil daimones), and have a place on the great ladder from
God to us as beings that are superior but still imperfect, their wickedness
being due to their association with matter.

4. daimon in Popular Greek Belief.
In popular belief daimones are a) spirits of the departed, b) shades which
appear especially in lonely places at night. They cause all kinds of mischances,
are responsible for illness and madness, bear special names, and may
be warded off or conjured up by magic.

5. Demon Terminology in the Greek and Hellenistic World
daimon is the more usual term, while daimonion (the neuter of the adjective
daimonios) has the more indefinite sense of "the divine", especially fate.
Parallel terms are "heros", "eidolin", and "psyche", and later under the
Judaic influence "angelos" and "pneuma".

6. daimon in Josephus and Philo.
Even linguistically Philo follows the Greek. He uses daimon for destiny,
a protective spirit, the spirit of a murdered wife, and intermediary beings
in the air. Josephus moves in the same world but he approximates the
rabbis in speaking of a "daimonion pneuma" and in the main he uses
daimonia (not daimones) for demons.

B. Jewish and LXX

C. The View of Demons in the NT

1. The NT usage is similar to that of later Judaism.

Daimon occurs only once, in Matt 8:31. daimonion is used elsewhere.

/////

2. In the main the NT follows the OT. There is no reference to the spirits
of the dead. daimnon, which suggests a divine intermediary, is avoided.
Angels and demons are basically antithetical.

...

Demonic powers are reserved for judgement.
Demons are subject to Satan in a kingdom that opposes God's kingdom.
They are thus the inspruments of Satan (See Jesus in Mk 3:20ff)

Quote:

How about the works cited by Danker in his entry on the word -- which include JGeffcken, Zwei griech. Apologeten ’07, 216ff; JTambornino, De Antiquorum Daemonismo ’09; RWünsch, D. Geisterbannung im Altertum: Festschr. Univ. Breslau ’11, 9-32; WBousset, Z. Dämonologie d. späteren Antike: ARW 18, ’15, 134-72; FAndres, Daimon: Pauly-W. Suppl. III ’18, 267-322; MPohlenz, Stoa ’49 [index].—HDuhm, D. bösen Geister im AT ’04; GABarton, Enc. of Rel. and Eth. IV ’11, 594-601; AJirku, D. Dämonen u. ihre Abwehr im AT ’12; ALods, Marti-Festschr. ’25, 181-93; HKaupel, D. Dämonen im AT ’30; Bousset, Rel.3 ’26, 331ff; Billerb. IV ’28, 501-35; TCanaan, M.D., Dämonenglaube im Lande der Bibel ’29; WFoerster, TW II 1-20.—WMAlexander, Demonic Possession in the NT ’02; JSmit, De Daemonicis in Hist. Evang. ’13; RBultmann, Gesch. d. syn. Tradition2 ’31, 223ff; HEberlein, NKZ 42, ’31, 499-509; 562-72; FFenner, D. Krankheit im NT ’30; ATitius, NBonwetsch-Festschr. ’18, 25-47; GSulzer, D. Besessenheitsheilungen Jesu ’21; HSeng, D. Heilungen Jesu in med. Beleuchtung2 ’26; WWrede, Z. Messiaserkenntnis d. Dämonen bei Mk: ZNW 5, ’04, 169-77; OBauernfeind, D. Worte d. Dämonen im Mk-Ev. ’28; AFridrichsen, Theology 21, ’31, 122-35; SVMcCasland, By the Finger of God ’51; SEitrem, Some Notes on the Demonology in the NT: Symbolae Osloenses, suppl. 12, ’50, 1-60; JKallas, The Satanward View (Paul), ’66 ff f

I am sorry to report I have not made notes on this source.

Quote:

How about the entry DEMON Δαίμων, Δαιμόνιον in Torn, Becking, and
Horst, Dictionary of deities and demons in the Bible DDD (2nd extensively rev. ed.)?

(it's pretty clear that the answer is, again, no)

I have read this source.

The following is the relevant extract.
Unfortunately the text does not preserve the Greek.
But I have posted part of it below because it does contain other relevant data.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible

http://archive.org/details/Dictionar...monsInTheBible

DEMON Acriuwv, Aaiuoviov

I. The term 'demon' is the rendering of
the cognate Greek words Saiutov and its
substantivized neuter adjective 8aiuoviov;
post-classical Latin borrowed the words in
the forms daemon and daemonium. The

original meaning of the term 5aipo)v from
the time of Homer onward was 'divinity',
denoting either an individual god or goddess
(of -"Aphrodite in //. 3.420), or the Deity as
an unspecified unity (Od. 3.27 "the Deity
will put it in your mind"). AeioiSmuovia
means 'reverence for the Divinity', or
simply 'religion' (Acts 25:19; cf. 17:22).
Plato derived the word from the near homo-
nym Sanjiiov, meaning 'knowing' [Crat.
398b, from the root *5da), 'to know'); Eusc-
bius rejected this conjecture and instead
derived the term from Seiuaiveiv, 'to fear'
(Praep. Ev. 4.5.142). The etymology more
likely stems from the root 5ai(o,'to divide
(destinies)'. Thus the word could designate
one's 'fate' or 'destiny', or the spirit con-
trolling one's fate, one's 'genius'. Common-
ly the word designated the class of lesser
divinities arranged below the Olympian
gods, the daimones. Hesiod describes them
as the souls of those who lived in the Gol-
den Age. who now invisibly watch over
human affairs (Erga 122-124).

As nearly all deities in the classical
period were morally ambiguous, the
daimones could be described as cither good
or evil, and the same daimon could bring
both good or ill according to one's piety or
fate. Not until post-Exilic times in intertes-
tamental literature, with the rise of dualism
and the concept of the -"Devil, did the word
begin to display the meaning 'evil demon in
league with the Devil' and take on an entire-
ly negative connotation (c. g. 1 Cor 10:20;
cf. LXX Ps 105:37). Christian writers use it
almost exclusively in this later sense. The
related term Saiuoviov in the classical
period meant similarly 'the divine power' or
'the Divinity' (Plato, Rep. 382e; cf. Acts
17:18). It could also mean the class of lower
divine beings 'between gods and mortals'
who mediated between the human and di-
vine spheres (Plato, Sym. 202e). So it
designated the famous daimonion of So-
crates (Plato, Apol. 24b, 40a). Again after
the Exile and the rise of dualism it came to
be used for 'Satanic demons', especially
among Jewish and Christian writers and in
non-Christian magical texts.

Two verbs from this root are important in

235

DEMON

Biblical and related literature: 8aiuovria> and
5aiuoviÂ£ouai. Both originally meant *to be
under the power of a god or daimorC, which
condition was often a blessing, producing
prophetic utterance or heroic behavior; it
could also be a curse, and the words could
mean 'to be insane'. In later authors, es-
pecially Jewish and Christian, they came to
mean 'to be possessed by a demon' which
caused bodily infirmity or insanity; in the
sense 'to be insane' it was used pejoratively
of the 'ravings' (= 'doctrines') of heretics
(Euscbius. Hist. eccl. 7.31.1 of Mani).
Aaiuovi^ouai is found once in the New
Testament as a verb in the phrase "cruelly
tormented by a demon" (Matt 15:22); all
other of the dozen further occurrences are of
the participle meaning 'one who is demon-
ized'. *a demoniac' (c. g., Mark 1:32).

II. The word and concept 'demon'
underwent fundamental change in antiquity
caused by the rise of dualism in the essen-
tially monistic cultures of the Near East.

/////

etc (See the link above for the full text and PDF with Greek)

Quote:

Or S. Eitrem, Some Notes on the Demonology of the New Testament (Uppsala 1966); T. H. Gaster, Demon, Demonology, IDB 1 (1962) 817–824; H. B. Kuhn, The Angelology of the Non-Canonical Jewish Apocalypses, JBL 67 (1948) 217–232; *E. Langton, Essentials of Demonology: A Study of Jewish and Christian Doctrine, Its Origin and Development (London 1949); E. C. E. Owen, Δαίμων and Cognate Words, JTS 32 (1931) 133–53.

(again, donuts for dollars, the answer is no).

I am still looking for this source.

Quote:

The reappropriation appears to have been done for the explicit purpose of demonising one of the more central concepts in Greek philosophy - the concept of the "guardian spirit" or "heavenly twin".

Horseshit. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Jeffrey

You have misread the OP.

The term under discussion here is "daimon" not "daimonion".

Daimon occurs only once, in Matt 8:31 although the TR has more occurrences.

daimonion is used elsewhere in the NT.

I trust this clarifies part of the OP.

I am interested in how Matthew has subverted the term "daimon"

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 03-20-2013, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Your own link says that "δαιμόνιον" is "derivative of δαίμων."

The OP is about the root δαίμων ("guardian spirit of men") not the derivative.

The meanings of the words are not the same.

From # 69

Strong's G1142 - daimōn - δαίμων - Strong's Number G1142 matches the Greek δαίμων (daimōn), which occurs 5 times in 5 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV - Page 1 / 1 (Mat 8:31 - Rev 18:2)

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueletterbible

1) a god, a goddess

a) an inferior deity, whether good or bad

2) in the NT, an evil spirit

Strong's G1140 - daimonion - δαιμόνιον - Strong's Number G1140 matches the Greek δαιμόνιον (daimonion), which occurs 60 times in 52 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV - Page 1 / 3 (Mat 7:22 - Luk 8:2)

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueletterbible

1) the divine power, deity, divinity

2) a spirit, a being inferior to God, superior to men

3) evil spirits or the messengers and ministers of the devil

Also see the different comparitive entries at studybible introduced by Iskander

But for the classical Greek context see daimonion and daimon.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

You do realize, don't you, that Strongs is not a lexicon. It does not define words. Nor does it make any attempt to do so, let alone give one the full semantic range that a Greek or Hebrew word possessed or any insight into its use diachronically. It simply lists what the KJV translators thought was the best 1611 English equivalent of a given Hebrew or Greek term that they were translating.

Its use as a lexicon, let alone as an authoritative source for what a Greek or Hebrew word means or what semantic range it actually possessed, is widely regarded as an indication that the user is not only a rank amatuer when it comes to exegesis, but also that the user hasn't the slightest clue as to just how much of an amatuer in matters Biblical and Classical that he/she is.

Moreover, it has hardly been demonstrated that the root meaning of δαίμων IS "guardian spirit (LSJ shows that it is not), let alone -- unless one wants to engage in the etymological fallacy -- that this meaning was fixed in all Greek usage prior to and beyond the first century (or is it the 4th if it was Eusebius who wrote the Gospels?) or, most importantly, that it and its cognate δαιμόνιον were not used to bear the sense of demon/evil spirit among non Christian Greek speakers prior to the 1st (or is it the 4th?) century -- all of which has to be demonstrated if Pete's argument that Christians "subverted the terms, rather than used it with a meaning it already possessed has any chance of being valid.

But assertion is not demonstration. Note too how Pete ignores the very evidence in LSJ that shows that these words were used by non Christian Greeks long before the 1st century CE, let alone the 4th, to mean demon/evil spirit

I repeat Jeffrey the OP is not about the two words "daimon" and "daimonion".

The OP is only about the root word "daimon".

I understand that this word has far more connotations than just "guardian spirit" but if you read through all the connotations listed we don't find the Greeks using the term as Matthew has (i.e. meaning "evil demon").

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon

δαίμων , ονος, voc.

A. “δαίμων” S.OC1480 (lyr.), “δαῖμον” Theoc.2.11, ὁ, ἡ, god, goddess, of individual gods or goddesses, Il.1.222, 3.420, etc.; “δαίμονι ἶσος” 5.438; ἐμίσγετο δαίμονι δαίμων, of Φιλίη and Νεῖκος, Emp. 59.1 :—but more freq. of the Divine power (while θεός denotes a God in person), the Deity, cf. Od.3.27; πρὸς δαίμονα against the Divine power, Il.17.98; σὺν δαίμονι by its grace, 11.792; κατὰ δαίμονα, almost, = τύχῃ, by chance, Hdt.1.111; “τύχᾳ δαίμονος” Pi.O.8.67; ἄμαχος δ., i. e. Destiny, B.15.23: in pl., ὅτι δαίμονες θέλωσιν, what the Gods ordain, Id.16.117; “ταῦτα δ᾽ ἐν τῷ δ.” S. OC1443; “ἡ τύχη καὶ ὁ δ.” Lys. 13.63, cf.Aeschin.3.111; “κατὰ δαίμονα καὶ συντυχίαν” Ar.Av.544.

2. the power controlling the destiny of individuals: hence, one's lot or forlune, “δτυγερὸς δέ οἱ ἔχραε δ.” Od.5.396, cf. 10.64; “δαίμονος αἶσα κακή” 11.61; δαίμονα δώσω I will deal thee fate, i.e. kill thee, I1.8.166; freq. in Trag. of good or ill fortune, “ὅταν ὁ δ. εὐροῇ” A.Pers.601; “δ. ἀσινής” Id.Ag.1342 (lyr.); “κοινός” Id.Th.812; “γενναῖος πλὴν τοῦ δαίμονος” S.OC76; “δαίμονος σκληρότης” Antipho 3.3.4; “τὸν οἴακα στρέφει δ. ἑκάστψ” Anaxandr.4.6; personified as the good or evil genius of a family or person, “δ. τῷπλεισθενιδῶν” A.Ag.1569, cf. S.OT1194 (lyr.); “ὁ ἑκάστου δ.” Pl.Phd.107d, cf. PMag.Lond.121.505, Iamb.Myst.9.1; “ὁ δ. ὁ τὴν ἡμετέραν μοῖραν λελογχώς” Lys.2.78; “ἅπαντι δ. ἀνδρι συμπαρίσταται εὐθὺς γενομένῳ μυσταγωγὸς τοῦ βίου” Men.16.2 D.; “δ. ἀλάστορες” Id.8D.; “ὁ μέγας [τοῦ Καίσαρος] δ.” Plu.Caes.69; ὁ σὸς δ. κακός ibid.; “ὁ βασιλέως δ.” Id.Art.15; “ἦθος ἀνθρώπῳ δ.” Heraclit.119; “Ξενοκράτης φησὶ τὴν ψυχὴν ἑκάστου εἶναι δ.” Arist.Top.112a37.

II. δαίμονες, οἱ, souls of men of the golden age, acting as tutelary deities, Hes.Op. 122, Thgn.1348, Phoc.15, Emp.115.5, etc.; “θεῶν, δ., ἡρώων, τῶν ἐν Ἅιδου” Pl.R.392a: less freq. in sg., “δαίμονι δ᾽ οἷος ἔησθα τὸ ἐργάζεσθαι ἄμεινον” Hes.Op.314; τὸν τὲ δ. Δαρεῖον ἀγκαλεῖσθε, of the deified Darius, A.Pers.620; νῦν δ᾽ ἐστὶ μάκαιρα δ., of Alcestis, E.Alc.1003 (lyr.), cf.IG12(5).305.5 (Paros): later, of departed souls, Luc.Luct.24; δαίμοσιν εὐσεβέσιν, = Dis Manibus, IG14.1683; so θεοὶ δ., ib.938, al.: also, ghost, Paus.6.6.8.

2. generally, spiritual or semi-divine being inferior to the Gods, Plu.2.415a, al., Sallust.12, Dam.Pr.183, etc.; esp. evil spirit, demon, Ev.Matt.8.31, J.AJ8.2.5; “φαῦλοι δ.” Alex.Aphr.Pr.2.46; δαίμονος ἔσοδος εἰς τὸν ἄνθρωπον, Aret.SD1.4; “πρᾶξις ἐκβάλλουσα δαίμονας” PMag.Par.1227.

3. ἀγαθὸς δ. the Good Genius to whom a toast was drunk after dinner, Ar.V.525, Nicostr.Com.20, D.S.4.3, Plu.2.655e, Philonid. ap. Ath.15.675b, Paus.9.39.5, IG12(3).436 (Thera), etc.; of Nero, “ἀ. δ. τῆς οἰκουμένης” OGI666.3; of the Nile, ἀ. δ. ποταμός ib.672.7 (i A.D.); of the tutelary genius of individuals (supr. 1), “ἀ. δ. Ποσειδωνίου” SIG1044.9 (Halic.): pl., δαίμονες ἀ., = Lat. Di Manes, SIG1246 (Mylasa): Astrol., ἀγαθός, κακός δ., names of celestial κλῆροι, Paul.Al.N.4, O.1, etc. (Less correctly written Ἀγαθοδαίμων, q.v.).

B. = δαήμων, knowing, δ. μάχης skilled in fight, Archil.3.4. (Pl. Cra.398b, suggests this as the orig. sense; while others would write δαήμονες in Archil., and get rid of this sense altogether; cf. however αἵμων. More probably the Root of δαίμων (deity) is δαίω to distribute destinies;; cf. Alcm.48.)

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 03-20-2013, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Two questions, Pete.

In this thread, are you assuming that there were Christians before Constantine or are you holding on to your position that there was no such thing as Christianity, let alone Christians, before the 4th century?

Thanks for this question Jeffrey. For the purposes of this thread I am happy to initially assume that Matthew may have written in the earlier centuries however I wish to investigate the use of the term "daimon" throughout the period until at least the 4th century, to cover the use of later writers such as Marcus Aurelius and Plotinus, and the use of the term by the authors of the gnostic non canonical material which I have cited earlier in this thread.

Quote:

Second, are you stating absolutely and in no uncertain terms that there is no instance at all of a non Christian Greek speaker using the terms [FONT=Gentium]δαίμων and δαιμόνιον[SIZE=2] [FONT=Verdana]to mean "demon/evil spirit" before the "birth of Christianity" whether that was in the 1st or the 4th century?

Again, I am being quite specific in that I am not examining the use of the term δαιμόνιον (which is used very frequently by the gospel authors and others in the period). I am focussing on the term δαίμων "daimon".

I have posted above from Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon and cannot see that the term δαίμων "daimon was originally used to mean "demon/evil spirit" .

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 03-20-2013, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Readings of Vaticanus

Matthew 8:31 daimon
Mark 5:12 word not present
Luke 8:29 daimonion

Thanks again Andrew. How then does the Blueletter Bible return instances of "daimon" at Mark 5:12 and Luke 8:29? Which version (or translation) of the Greek does the Blueletter Bible employ?

If I wanted to check what codex Sinaticus or Alexandrinus (or in fact all readings of the available evidence) attests to, are there in existence any concordances for these three verses.

Has anyone collected all variant readings from all the Greek sources and indexed them with annotations?

Yes, they have. And if you would ever look at the what is known as the critical apparatus in the critical editions of the NT, and the textual commentary sections of critical commentaries on the Gospels, or such basic text critical resources as Metzger's Commentary on the Greek Text of the New Testament (or via: amazon.co.uk), you'd see them.

Thanks. I have since read this.

Quote:

How someone like you who not only lays claim to knowledge of matters NT, but who poses as someone to whom we should listen when you make assertions about the NT and early Christianity, can not be aware of these things (not to mention steeped in them) is beyond me.

Hang on a minute. I am only asking questions. The field of ancient history for the epoch covering the hypothetical origins of the Christian religion and its holy writ is vast, and textual criticism (while itself being a vast subject) is only one component part in the vast arena of evidentiary sources and their interpretations.

I am happy to report that I am still a student of the field and still learning things from discussion.

At present I am seeking to understand how the word "daimon" has been taken from the Greek literature by at least Matthew (but according to the Textus Receptus also by Mark and Luke) and subverted from its general meaning of an indwelling god or divinity (hence "guardian spirit") to be used instead as meaning an "evil demon".

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 03-20-2013, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The reappropriation appears to have been done for the explicit purpose of demonising one of the more central concepts in Greek philosophy - the concept of the "guardian spirit" or "heavenly twin".

Where and when exactly, Pete, does the notion that δαίμων meant "heavenly twin" appear as a central concept in Greek philosophy?

As I have explained above, I am interested in all sources from the period commencing from the Greek classical epoch BCE right through to the sources of the first three or four centuries - at least until we have some closure on the canonisation of the books of the NT canon. This therefore includes usage of the term by the gnostic authors.

While Mani and the Manichaeans appear to have first used the term to allude to a "heavenly twin", some of the gnostic sources also do the same. I have cited such example sources above (post #19).

There appears to be one claim (I do not yet know the ultimate sources) that the Egyptians used this term "heavenly twin" as follows ...

Quote:

(1) In ancient Egypt the Daemon had for millennia been pictured as a Heavenly Twin of the eidolon.

(2) gnostic Acts of John, John observes that Jesus sometimes held
conversations with a Heavenly Twin who descended to join him: He says:

“When all of us, his disciples, were sleeping in one house at Gennesaret, I alone,
having wrapped myself up, watched from under my garment what he did; and first I
heard him say, "John, go thou to sleep," and thereupon I pretended to be asleep;
and I saw another like unto him come down, whom I also heard saying to my Lord,
"Jesus, do the ones that you have chosen still not believe in you?" And my Lord
said, " You say well, for they are men."

(3) The Pistis Sophia relates a charming myth of the child Jesus meeting his own Heavenly Twin
for the first time. His mother Mary recalls: “When you were a child, before the Spirit had
descended upon you, when you were in the vineyard with Joseph, the Spirit came down from
the height, and came unto me in the house, like unto thee, and I knew Him not, but thought
that he was you. And he said unto me, "Where is Jesus, my brother, that I may go to meet him?"
Mary relates to Jesus that when his Twin finally found him, "He embraced you and kissed you,
and you also did kiss him and you became one and the same being."

Quote:

Dated primary sources, please!

This request will require further research.

Above are the stubs of such research.

They should serve to introduce the task.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-20-2013, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I have posted above from Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon and cannot see that the term δαίμων "daimon was originally used to mean "demon/evil spirit" .

I remind you that the question was and is not what the "original meaning" of δαίμων was, but whether the use of it to signify "evil spirits" was a Christian invention -- that is to say, is it really the case that there are no pre and non Christan uses of δαίμων with this meaning.

As to your not seeing LSJ attest to this, did you not see what I've bolded here?

2. generally, spiritual or semi-divine being inferior to the Gods, Plu.2.415a, al., Sallust.12, Dam.Pr.183, etc.; esp. evil spirit, demon, Ev.Matt.8.31, J.AJ8.2.5; “φαῦλοι δ.” Alex.Aphr.Pr.2.46; δαίμονος ἔσοδος εἰς τὸν ἄνθρωπον, Aret.SD1.4; “πρᾶξις ἐκβάλλουσα δαίμονας” PMag.Par.1227.

And leaving aside the question of who "J" and "Alex. Aphr." and "Aret." are and what "PMag" is (do you know?), and what their use ofδαίμων signifies with respect to the validity of your claim that the use of δαίμων to signify "evil spirit" was a Christian invention, what about the Greek texts that I cited in a previous note? Did you not "see" them as well?

Do you think that LSJ lists all instances of the use of a Greek word with a certain sense?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-20-2013, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Where and when exactly, Pete, does the notion that δαίμων meant "heavenly twin" appear as a central concept in Greek philosophy?

As I have explained above, I am interested in all sources from the period commencing from the Greek classical epoch BCE right through to the sources of the first three or four centuries - at least until we have some closure on the canonisation of the books of the NT canon. This therefore includes usage of the term by the gnostic authors.

OK. So I'll ask again: Where and when exactly, Pete, does the notion of "heavenly twin" appear as a central concept in Greek philosophy with the word δαίμων being used to elucidate this concept.

You've made the claim that the "heavenly twin" idea was a central concept in Greek philosophy and that the term δαίμων was used when this concept is discussed. You've also indicated that it was a central concept in philsophers who lived prior to the Christian era. How else coud the reaction to it that you claim that the Christain use of δαίμων is be the sort of reaction you claim it is.

Please show me that you actually have evidence for this claim. In which Greek philosophers, especially the pre Christian ones, is the idea of a "heavenly twin" central? Plato, Aristotle? The Epicureans? The Stoics? The Cynics? In any of the ones listed here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...C_philosophers or here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...C_philosophers or here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...C_philosophers ?

And in what philosophical texts can I find the word δαίμων part of the typical vocabulary of these philosophers when they are discussing the idea?

Surely you already know. Otherwise why would you make the claim you did?

Jeffrey

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03-20-2013, 01:46 PM	#141
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Some off topic posts, including all the Chili posts, have been split off here

03-20-2013, 03:37 PM	#142
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	tanya the same thing happens with the targums. if you haven't noticed when ancient texts are translated into English no two translations are the same. Learn another language and you'll understand. indeed English translations of ancient texts are generally quite literal when compared with parallel French translations. I don't understand your question or your problem but its an issue you and aa have had forever. There's a German word - Sprachgefühl - which sums up that special sense which allows us to render the underlying sense of words and phrases from one language to another (= "feeling for a language). A sentence is more than the sum of its parts.

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