Mageth

Bring those responsible to justice? Who's justice? God's, George W's, Osama's?

Preferably, justice before a World Court. The consensus of most of the world is that terrorism is wrong and perpetrators should be brought to justice.

When the Supreme Court (or any other court) makes a ruling or finds a verdict, do you ignore it because it's not "God's Justice", but is instead based on the justice outlined in our legal documents (e.g. the Constitution, Federal and State laws). DO you think those documents don't define "justice" for our society? And don't go giving me the tired bit about "those are based on God's/Biblical justice." They're not.

You have yet to demonstrate to me that there is anything like an objective basis for morality which you've claimed. So far, your entire argument seems to be one big Argumentum ad Nauseum.

Keith

I wasn't aware that there have been dozens of points that I have thus far ignored. The fact is, I often respond in such a way as to answer many points in one posting. If I've forgotten to address a few points, I regret it, but I can't spend all day on this discussion. I actually do have other work that needs my attention. All I can say is...sorry, it's not my intention to ignore anyone.

Keith

God can't appeal to anything beyond himself as ultimate because only God is capable of being the ONE ULTIMATE. This means that God can't choose what is "good" "just" or "morally right" without reference to himself. Without God, these words have no meaning.

Keith

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

(from Romans, chapter one)

What is justice? Where did the first living cell come from? Since the universe isn't infinitely old, how did it begin, and why? Is there a purpose to human life? What is our purpose? If nature is just due to random-chance processes, how, and why do unpurposeful chance processes spontaneously lead to purposeful order?

Keith

The world court? That and buck- fifty will get you a cup of coffee. The consensus of most of the world seems to be that America got a bit of what she deserved. Sad but true. No, the only justice is God's.

It is fascinating to see how often atheists use phrases like "they should be brought to justice" as though there exists ONE single standard for what constitutes justice. But let me remind you that justice doesn't mean the same thing for Osama that it means to you. For Osama, justice for the perpetrators of 9/11 probably means fifty virgins and a few cases of whisky for each one of them.

So, if God doesn't exist, what does the phrase "they should be brought to justice" mean? What should it mean?

Ronin

Since assorted personality-based tangents (my own included) have distracted us from Carrie's OP, I thought I would reflect back on her initial statements.

I agree.

Carrie gives an opinion and then provides the rationale for the opinion.

This very website, among others, lays the groundwork detailing all the things that are wrong with the assorted religious lexicons.

The daily debates reflect well the lame and circuitous defenses provided by theists and/or sheer avoidance of the tough issues addressed at their creeds.

Carrie is expressing an astute assessment of the facts and circumstances inherent in the topic.

She also correctly identifies her assessment as possibly being offensive to the target group.

A worthwile craving, yet, even other atheists have some traits that I have to simply give them a pass on at times...I have learned to do the same for the theists in my personal life.

I have a very good atheist friend that I have known since high school (He even occasionally lurks at this very site).

He has been there for me through many critical points in my life. He is an avowed racist and misogynist and we have had some rather contentious debates where I almost always come away with the feeling that he is ignorant beyond hope...he still remains one of my most loyal and favored friends.

I have found that violence is only the answer when directly protecting your own life or those of others.

The sticks and stones doctrine applies everywhere else.

Come to Mississippi...it is an relatively unknown haven for atheists.

I have found that it is far better to develop an understanding for all people, but address their claims whenever possible.

Even you found your answers within the dissent against theism from some rational source that examined religious claims.

You can, therefore, be the difference in the life of someone else.

There is always hope.

Mageth

Keith:

God can't appeal to anything beyond himself as ultimate because only God is capable of being the ONE ULTIMATE. This means that God can't choose what is "good" "just" or "morally right" without reference to himself. Without God, these words have no meaning.

God is then, by definition, amoral.

dangin

It should mean that based on our collective laws they should be brought before a human court, and given punishment on earth, and be kept from repeating their offences.

If you wait for "god's justice" it will never happen.

And btw, it is my opinion that you were never an atheist. You may have lived a secular life before you became a reformed christian, but you have absolutely no idea what an atheist is, or what most of us base our worldviews on. Please stop referring to yourself as a former atheist, because you do those of us who have thought about our position an injustice.

And lies make baby jesus cry.

Mageth

Keith, apparently trying to throw confusion into the topic to cover the many topical responses he won't or can't address, shotgunned us with the following list of mostly irrelevant question:

What is justice? Where did the first living cell come from? Since the universe isn't infinitely old, how did it begin, and why? Is there a purpose to human life? What is our purpose? If nature is just due to random-chance processes, how, and why do unpurposeful chance processes spontaneously lead to purposeful order?

Try to keep it on topic, why don't you? The first question perhaps belongs in a different topic, the second question belongs in the Evolution/Creation forum, the third probably in the Science and Skepticism forum, the fourth and fifth at least in a different topic, and the last perhaps also in the S&S forum.

I'll give short answers to each here, though, but I suggest any further discussion be taken to different threads:

What is justice? Look it up in the dictionary.

Where did the first living cell come from? From self-organizing biochemical molecules that preceded it.

How did the universe begin, and why? The big bang, and "why" is not relevant. There is no "why", nor is one required.

Is there a purpose to human life? No, not really. We can invent purposes, individually and collectively, but the purpose of H. sapiens is no different than the purpose of any other species.

What is our purpose? An individual's purpose is what he or she makes it. A group can create purposes for the group. However, there is no Purpose (with a capital P).

If nature is just due to random-chance processes, how, and why do unpurposeful chance processes spontaneously lead to purposeful order? Nature is not "just due to random-chance processes", so your question is irrelevant.

Mageth

Originally posted by Keith
The world court? That and buck- fifty will get you a cup of coffee. The consensus of most of the world seems to be that America got a bit of what she deserved. Sad but true.

You're wrong on that. Most of the world, and most of the nations in the world, are against terrorism. The U.N. certainly is. The outcry and outrage at 9/11 was almost universal, with only a few pockets (mostly in the Middle East) where celebrations were seen. That's the issue we were discussing, wasn't it?

No, the only justice is God's.

Where is God's justice? I haven't seen it, that's for sure. Once again, you're merely making an assertion with no evidence to back it up. Hence, you're merely continuing your Argumentum ad Nauseum.

And once again, you have to first prove that god(s) exist, and then prove your God exists. Lotsa luck.

It is fascinating to see how often atheists use phrases like "they should be brought to justice" as though there exists ONE single standard for what constitutes justice.

I don't recall ever saying there is "one single standard for justice." There are standards for justice within states, nations, and even the world; they are not necessarily the same, typically modeled to fit the needs of the society to which they apply.

BTW, it is you who are claiming there is "one single standard for justice"; above you said "the only justice is God's", so your statement "as though there exists ONE single standard for what constitutes justice" seems a bit odd. However, your inability to actually produce evidence for that "one single standard for justice", despite repeated requests by me and others for you to produce it, makes this merely an unfounded assertion, put forth as an Argumentum ad Nauseum.

But let me remind you that justice doesn't mean the same thing for Osama that it means to you. For Osama, justice for the perpetrators of 9/11 probably means fifty virgins and a few cases of whisky for each one of them.

I agree, and never said otherwise. However, since bin Laden lives in this world, and today's global society has reached by consensus a system of world justice that covers actions by bin Laden and other world figures (including heads of state such as Bush), there is a world justice under which bin Laden (and others) can be and is held accountable for his actions.

So, if God doesn't exist, what does the phrase "they should be brought to justice" mean? What should it mean?

How many times do I have to repeat the answer? I'll state it here in a different form:

Someone should be brought to justice for actions committed that violate the one or more "standards of justice" under which that person's acts were committed. Note that a person may face justice under two or more justice systems; for example, if I, as a resident of Texas and the U.S., commit a serious crime, it is possible that I face justice both under the state's justice system and under the U.S. justice system.

And tell me, when, where and what is God's justice supposed to rain down on bin Laden, or any one for that matter? So far, the world's justice seems to be having a much greater effect on him than God's justice. If god is so just, why didn't he stop bin Laden et al before 9/11, or at least strike him down directly after? I've seen absolutely no response by God through this whole affair.