Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doctor X · 07-10-2003, 11:41 PM

Thanks.

One thing I will stress to those unfamiliar with it is that it even demonstrates why your basic shard is important without putting you into a coma . . . it also does not bury you in:

Quote:

From the palatial shift of t'kmlsh ""?#$ yh; obvious in the Late Middle Early Tin Age we can see. . . .

--J.D.

Tellurian · 07-11-2003, 02:52 PM

Didn't the Moses (brothers Ahmose and Thutmose from Thebes) drive the Hebrew (Hyksos) Pharoah out of the city of Avaris (later renamed Pi Ramses) eastward throught the sea of reeds along the Mediterranean coast and into the desert of south Canaan?

Doctor X · 07-11-2003, 04:05 PM

Ah . . . I have heard of the "Hyksos" opinion . . . last I looked there is not a lot of evidence to support it being the Hebrews.

However, I am here, high and dry, without my references, so take that with the appropriate pound of sodium chloride.

Also . . . someone with better understanding of the Hebrew than I--which is just about anyone--"Sea of Reeds" is really a mythical "Sea of Destruction" and the whole thing is part of a "YHWH defeats the Water Beasty" myth.

Now . . . rereading your post . . . is it possible the story is based on an Egyptian story? I will have to look into that.

[Basically he has no useful information.--Ed.]

--J.D.

Sauron · 07-11-2003, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mark9950
A response from a minister about the city of UR.

Regarding the Muslim faith:

You realize, don't you, that the muslim faith was established AFTER Christ walked the earth and thousands of years before Abraham. Abraham has NO concept of the muslim faith as it was not invented yet. It would be like stating that the ancient Indians were all Christian for they came from the land where Washington and Adams and Jefferson were as Christians.

Only according to the judeo-christian view of history. According to the islamic view, Abraham was a Muslim. What your minister friend is ignorant of, is that a muslim will tell you that Islam did not begin with Muhammad. Islam began with Adam.

Abraham was just one of 25 prophets and was himself a muslim. His faith was the same as Muhammad's. It was only later generations of men, led astray by Satan, who twisted the original islamic faith that Abraham believed in.

Doctor X · 07-11-2003, 09:07 PM

Except that the minister could reply that that does not have any historical support.

To which, someone could reply to the minister that Abraham does not have historical support.

Someone will grab some kindling wood and start a few fires. . . .

--J.D.

mark9950 · 07-12-2003, 08:12 AM

Abraham or muhammad?

The story of abraham is well older than the prophet muhammad.

The prophet muhammad lived at about 570ce

http://www.islam101.com/rasool/

and the story of abraham is well older if he even lived it would be about 2000 bc or older.

You are in no position to say abraham was a muslim because there is no historical proof that abraham was a muslim in the first place,even if he even lived.

Which means the OT abraham was handed down from oral tradition well before muhammad was born,just because muhammad says it and you belive it does not make it so.

Marduk · 07-12-2003, 03:10 PM

�Didn't the Moses (brothers Ahmose and Thutmose from Thebes) drive the Hebrew (Hyksos) Pharoah out of the city of Avaris (later renamed Pi Ramses) eastward throught the sea of reeds along the Mediterranean coast and into the desert of south Canaan?�

Sort of, IIRC they fought the Hyksos to a draw, tried to starve them out of the city, then cut a deal to allow them safe passage out of Egypt to Canaan. But it is not clear if the Hyksos were Hebrews or Canaanites. It is possible the Hebrews were a subset of the Hyksos. If Avaris became Pi Ramses it was not till 300 years or so later.
Hyksos expulsion ca. 1500 BCE, Ramses II ca. 1200 BCE.

Doctor X · 07-13-2003, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Abraham or muhammad?

Abraham for, as far as I know, Muhammad actually existed . . . I will leave it to more prudent men to argue whether or not what we think he said and did was actually what he said and did.

Regarding Abraham:

Quote:

We have seen in the foregoing chapter that the received tradition about Abraham;s journey from Ur of the Chaldean to Canaan by way of Harran is not an originally independent tradition about Abraham. Rather it is a historiographical reconstruction which is based not on several originally independent and conflicting traditions. It not only must be understood as unhistorical, but any attempt to find movements analogous to Abraham's in the history of the Near East are essentially misdirected for the purposes of biblical interpretation.

Thompson T. The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives: the Quest for the Historical Abraham

As noted, this book is a bit painful in that it has to go through the linguistics of names. Showing, for example, that "So-and-So" really cannot be a "Such-and-Such" because his name is "Gobbliy-Gookite" in order to establish "Such-and-Such" ascendence over the "Whateverites" that "Such-and-Such" is claimed to have founded in a text written a few hundred years after the supposed events requires such pain, unfortunately.

--J.D.

River · 07-14-2003, 09:29 AM

"So We have taught thee the inspired (Message), "Follow the ways of Abraham the True in Faith, and he joined not gods with Allah." [ Holy Qur'an 16:123]

"Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him, as are also this Prophet and those who believe: And Allah is the Protector of those who have faith. "[Holy Qur'an 3:68]

They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."[Holy Qur'an 2:135]

Doctor X · 07-14-2003, 12:53 PM

Okay . . . I am not sure the purpose of that.

Is it to show that Abraham was considered a Muslim by the author(s) of the Qu'ran?

Is it to show that Abraham considered himself a Muslim? If that, it hits the problem that Abraham did not exist. Frankly, I do not think the Qu'ran can demonstrate that the writers of the Pentateuch intended to represent a Muslim! Indeed, it seems they gathered conflicting stories with a purpose relevant to their time and audience.

Of course . . . I may have just completely missed the point of River's response.

--J.D.

07-12-2003, 08:12 AM	#16
mark9950 Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: midwest usa Posts: 1,203	Which is older Abraham or muhammad? The story of abraham is well older than the prophet muhammad. The prophet muhammad lived at about 570ce http://www.islam101.com/rasool/ and the story of abraham is well older if he even lived it would be about 2000 bc or older. You are in no position to say abraham was a muslim because there is no historical proof that abraham was a muslim in the first place,even if he even lived. Which means the OT abraham was handed down from oral tradition well before muhammad was born,just because muhammad says it and you belive it does not make it so.

07-14-2003, 09:29 AM	#19
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	Abraham (pbuh) the Muslim "So We have taught thee the inspired (Message), "Follow the ways of Abraham the True in Faith, and he joined not gods with Allah." [ Holy Qur'an 16:123] "Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him, as are also this Prophet and those who believe: And Allah is the Protector of those who have faith. "[Holy Qur'an 3:68] They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."[Holy Qur'an 2:135]

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07-11-2003, 02:52 PM	#12
Tellurian Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: California Posts: 93	Didn't the Moses (brothers Ahmose and Thutmose from Thebes) drive the Hebrew (Hyksos) Pharoah out of the city of Avaris (later renamed Pi Ramses) eastward throught the sea of reeds along the Mediterranean coast and into the desert of south Canaan?

07-11-2003, 04:05 PM	#13
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Ah . . . I have heard of the "Hyksos" opinion . . . last I looked there is not a lot of evidence to support it being the Hebrews. However, I am here, high and dry, without my references, so take that with the appropriate pound of sodium chloride. Also . . . someone with better understanding of the Hebrew than I--which is just about anyone--"Sea of Reeds" is really a mythical "Sea of Destruction" and the whole thing is part of a "YHWH defeats the Water Beasty" myth. Now . . . rereading your post . . . is it possible the story is based on an Egyptian story? I will have to look into that. [Basically he has no useful information.--Ed.] --J.D.

07-11-2003, 09:07 PM	#15
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Except that the minister could reply that that does not have any historical support. To which, someone could reply to the minister that Abraham does not have historical support. Someone will grab some kindling wood and start a few fires. . . . --J.D.

07-12-2003, 03:10 PM	#17
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	�Didn't the Moses (brothers Ahmose and Thutmose from Thebes) drive the Hebrew (Hyksos) Pharoah out of the city of Avaris (later renamed Pi Ramses) eastward throught the sea of reeds along the Mediterranean coast and into the desert of south Canaan?� Sort of, IIRC they fought the Hyksos to a draw, tried to starve them out of the city, then cut a deal to allow them safe passage out of Egypt to Canaan. But it is not clear if the Hyksos were Hebrews or Canaanites. It is possible the Hebrews were a subset of the Hyksos. If Avaris became Pi Ramses it was not till 300 years or so later. Hyksos expulsion ca. 1500 BCE, Ramses II ca. 1200 BCE.

07-14-2003, 12:53 PM	#20
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Okay . . . I am not sure the purpose of that. Is it to show that Abraham was considered a Muslim by the author(s) of the Qu'ran? Is it to show that Abraham considered himself a Muslim? If that, it hits the problem that Abraham did not exist. Frankly, I do not think the Qu'ran can demonstrate that the writers of the Pentateuch intended to represent a Muslim! Indeed, it seems they gathered conflicting stories with a purpose relevant to their time and audience. Of course . . . I may have just completely missed the point of River's response. --J.D.

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