FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > IIDB ARCHIVE: 200X-2003, PD 2007 > IIDB Philosophical Forums (PRIOR TO JUN-2003)
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 05:55 AM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-04-2003, 12:33 PM   #121
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the land of two boys and no sleep.
Posts: 9,890
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Nowhere357
I understand what you mean about recognition in the mirror. I'm not sure why you say that means a dog has 'no concept' beyond first person. I think a dog's brain and a human brain have all the same parts.
To be honest, I'm having a difficult time putting that into words.

Okay...when we were kids, we thought about ourselves as adults. At my age, I remember being a kid, and I think about my life (many years from now) as a senior. In these ways, I can conceptualize myself as "different people".

Can a dog "picture himself" in any sense beyond the first person? (i.e. the only world that exists to him is from the perspective of his two eyes, facing front).

Additionally, I have a sense of self-actualization, I can see how I am similar and different to others. I can see where I fit in at work or in my neighbourhood, and likewise I can see where I do not.

From what I have read, animals do not demonstrate these abilities. It is often said that a family dog thinks he's "people". Does a puppy think about his changing life as he ages? Does a puppy conceptualize himself as an adult dog with different roles or functions?

For some reason, Aasimov's "I, Robot" comes to mind.

Now I stress, I am not an animal behaviorist, so if you're keen on getting good answers, you'd be better off getting a qualified opinion.
Wyz_sub10 is offline  
Old 04-04-2003, 12:46 PM   #122
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the land of two boys and no sleep.
Posts: 9,890
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Smilin
Another thought I've had on the 'dog can't recognize himself in the mirror' experiment. Neither can a human baby, until it learns can it?
True. I would say, though, that babies are similarly not "self-aware" until they develop. From my education-degree days, I remember studies suggesting that babies think you have 'disappeared' when playing 'peek-a-boo', and that if you remove something from the baby's view, the baby thinks that thing no longer exits.

Quote:
Just a hunch I have. If a dog learns to recognize itself.. does it therefore possess consciousness?
My definition of 'consciousness' is not necessarily one that would require this recognition. I tend to think these things (self-recognition, planning for the future, conceptualizing scenarios) have to do with the development of the brain and not due to some presence of consciousness.

I think our cat has a level of consciousness - he knows when he's done something for which he will be scolded, he knows enough not to hurt me when we're roughhousing (i.e. he knows he's not being threatened), he seems to know, somehow, that when I step on his tail or foot (because he is always underfoot) that it was an accident and not intentional, and he is always on the stairs, by the door (waiting to run outside) when we come home (so he knows we'll be there at some point).

He doesn't recognize himself in the mirror, and I doubt he wonders what his life would be like if he had joined the kitten circus. But that's because he has a wee little brain.

Not to mention that he gets by on his good looks. Even for a cat, he's dumb as dirt.
Wyz_sub10 is offline  
Old 04-04-2003, 01:18 PM   #123
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 2,846
Default

I've heard somewhere that one possible reason for dogs and cats not recognizing themselves in a mirror is due to the lack of scent in the reflection. Both animals rely heavily on their olfactory senses for individual idenitfication. They don't recognize their reflection in the mirror because they don't acknowledge the reflection as "real".
Majestyk is offline  
Old 04-04-2003, 01:25 PM   #124
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the land of two boys and no sleep.
Posts: 9,890
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Majestyk
I've heard somewhere that one possible reason for dogs and cats not recognizing themselves in a mirror is due to the lack of scent in the reflection. Both animals rely heavily on their olfactory senses for individual idenitfication. They don't recognize their reflection in the mirror because they don't acknowledge the reflection as "real".
Interesting. That would account for some things, to be sure.

The problem, though, is that a dog will often bark or growl at his reflection in the mirror because he/she thinks it is another dog.
Wyz_sub10 is offline  
Old 04-04-2003, 01:52 PM   #125
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: LALA Land in California
Posts: 433
Default

Of course my little darling Lenny is special. He is loaded with feelings and emotions. As far as I'm concerned he is human and my best friend who always shows me unconditional love. When he sees me putting my shoes on he's starts crying and screaming real high pitched to try to make me stay home. When He barks at strangers, his bark deepens . Perhaps to sound more macho? He goes ballistic when I come home, It's like I've been gone for months if I just go get a loaf of bread. He wiggles and turns in circles, then he goes to the couch to await his hugs.

Anyhoo, I just read this thread again and noticed this part again. I couldn't help but laugh. Where did Paul2 go?

Quote:
posted by Paul2:
Having never had to experience a fight or flight situation, i can't comment.
Quote:
Mad Kally to Paul2:
Poor thing. If a pitbull runs over and starts ripping you to pieces, you'll just stand there and let it kill you without the fight or flight response. Be very careful. Do not go out into the real world! I'll bet you'd let my chihuahua rip your shoes to pieces too. He's hell on shoestrings. Don't even think about your ankles!
Quote:
Posted by Paul2:
So the fight or flight responce is the only thing that tells me to take out my knife and stab it in the throat? I'd say that would be me thinking "crap, this thing's vicious. Thankfully i carry around a big knife." and then repeatedly stabbing it. ??
I can see the headlines now! Possible sociopath calmly reaches down and stabs 4 pound chuhauhua repeatedly for attacking his shoestrings! FILM AT 11...
MadKally is offline  
Old 04-05-2003, 12:11 AM   #126
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Grand Junction CO
Posts: 2,231
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Wyz_sub10
Can a dog "picture himself" in any sense beyond the first person? (i.e. the only world that exists to him is from the perspective of his two eyes, facing front).
Does a puppy conceptualize himself as an adult dog with different roles or functions?
Now I understand. I think then that the ability must be a range, not an on/off thing. Anyway, I see no evidence dogs plan for retirement, but I'm sure they can see ahead to dinner.
Nowhere357 is offline  
Old 04-05-2003, 09:41 AM   #127
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 2,846
Default

Ahh, but at least one dog, I know of, knows that a treat is due for waiting to get outside before relieving himself.

I've spent a considerable amount of time contemplating the nature of consciousness. I've come to two conclusions. Neuroscience is still lacking the tools to properly account for the phenomena and we will have to accept a little humility when it does. The first is due to the massively complex network and interaction of neurons and chemicals that make up the brain. The second is that I suspect that our current sense of control and self-determination will be obliterated.

Actually, I should say three conclusions. I have to keep reminding myself that I don't know anything.
Majestyk is offline  
Old 04-05-2003, 06:17 PM   #128
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Grand Junction CO
Posts: 2,231
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Majestyk
I've spent a considerable amount of time contemplating the nature of consciousness. I've come to two conclusions. Neuroscience is still lacking the tools to properly account for the phenomena and we will have to accept a little humility when it does. The first is due to the massively complex network and interaction of neurons and chemicals that make up the brain. The second is that I suspect that our current sense of control and self-determination will be obliterated.

Actually, I should say three conclusions. I have to keep reminding myself that I don't know anything.
I agree with your first and third conclusions.

IMO your second conclusion has overlooked the fact that all knowledge requires preconception, which directly imply minds. IOW knowledge requires minds. SO any datum that says "there are no minds" can be dismissed as illusionary.

The laws of physics do not indicate life. To study life (biology, psychology) we must first assume life exists. Between physics and biology, then, is a sort of boundary or membrane.

The laws of biology do not indicate minds. To study minds, we first must assume they exist. Between biology and psychology, then, is a sort of boundary or membrane.

Or so it seems to me, anyway.
Nowhere357 is offline  
Old 04-05-2003, 08:11 PM   #129
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: LALA Land in California
Posts: 433
Default

Topic: What does 'consciousness' mean to you?

Being a part of the medical profession, it means to me that I am not unconscious.
MadKally is offline  
Old 04-11-2003, 07:19 AM   #130
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sydney/AUSTRALIA
Posts: 270
Default

Dear Smilin.

Your original question, what does consciousness mean to you?
Well, this is the answer we received from our universal contacts.

Definition of Consciousness:-

It's the ''band'' that defines what level of awakening is intergrated into living souls at the stage of seeding.
Consciousness at birth is only seen as the second stage of the process and will be lived according to the contract already deemed.
Consciousness must be from Soul level ''as to know'' what is before you in that Earthly life and what lessons are to come from it, Will give you your choices and path in life.
This will not be resolved from 3D seeing as there is No answer, only Questions.

This is So!

Definition of the ''band'':-

It is the ''Width'' given to the level of consciousness.

This is the universal understanding of Consciousness.
We leave it for you to ponder.

Cheers.

Malai5.
malai5 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:49 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.