Cthulhu

luvluv:

are voodoo practitioners attempting to force animal-sacrificing and curse-laying 101 into the public schools?

Are Santaists using their beliefs in the Great Gift-Giver to justify war, genocide, and oppression?

Is Santaism attempting to encroach into every aspect of our society and personal lives?

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: Cthulhu ]

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: Cthulhu ]</p>

K

luvluv:

No disrespect taken. I understand how it might seem that atheists are preoccupied debating this with theists when we don't do the same with psychics, astrologers, etc. There is one big issue that I believe you're overlooking. You aren't having astrology and voodoo shoved down your throat constantly. Wouldn't you invest some time debating if nobody was ever elected to a public office simply because they didn't believe in astrology? How about if admitting you didn't believe in voodoo could prevent you from getting a job? What if your kids were made to say "one nation under the Psychic Netword" in school everyday? What if presidential candidates said that people who don't believe in Santa Clause aren't patriots or even American citizens? If those things happened, don't you think you'd spend a little time debating people with silly beliefs - not so much to get them to change, but more to create a little more acceptance of non-believers?

There is also the fact that former theists like myself feel some resentment toward those who programmed us to believe from a very young age. It's good to find others here in the same boat. If you had been born into a family of astrologers who taught you that astrology was true for your entire life, would you still find it a complete waste to spend some time at the one place you'd found a group of non astrologers?

By the way, luvluv, you were one of the theists I was referring to specifically when I talked about appreciating most of the non-atheists that frequent these boards. We rarely agree on things, but your arguments are well-researched and they never involve personal insults.

sandlewood

If 85% of the population in the US really believed Santa Claus existed, I would be spending time here debating against the existence of Santa Claus. If those people made political decisions based on Santa and his list, then I’d be here. If they wanted to teach our kids in public schools that reindeer pull Santa’s sleigh to every house in the world in one night and that Santa drops down chimneys, then I’d be here. God is just Santa Claus for adults. Except instead of presents under the tree you get Heaven. Instead of coal in your stocking you get Hell. Instead of elves you get angels.

Edit: And now that I think about it, there are more parallels. Santa has his commandments:

I. You better watch out
II. You better not cry.
III. You better not pout.
IV. Be good for goodness sake

And Santa has his list of people who are good and are going to get saved, same as God. Hmmmm…

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: sandlewood ]</p>

MrDarwin

It cuts both ways, luvluv. My own theory, which I know is shared by others, is that the Christians who spend so much time here are trying very hard to overcome their own doubts or even, deep down, outright disbelief. They aren't trying to convince us, they're trying to convince themselves.

And a fair number of them fail.

MrDarwin

Or, it could simply be that websites like this one tend to attract people who like to waste time online and/or are argumentative. (My partner, also an agnostic-leaning-atheist, has no interest in discussing any of this and keeps asking me why I do. And the truth is, I like to argue.)

K

Vanderzyden:

If God is omniscient and He still created us the way He did, then He created us with all our faults. The only way around that is to pose another god who is stronger than God that corrupted His original design. A just God certainly couldn't hold that against us either.

Autonemesis

I'll answer that one: No

I don't like to find myself in error. Mind you, this has no bearing on whether I will recognize error. But since you asked what I want to be, the answer has to be "No, I'd rather not be wrong on this one."

xeren

I think you spoke too soon.

And that was my joke from earlier in the thread.

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: xeren ]</p>

RJS

such rebuttals might make sense if luvluv was the President and Geo was the Sec of Education, but we are just believers sitting around in our underwear typing on our computers

RJS

So Kind Bud would hypothetically give up eternal bliss as opposed to being wrong. What were those comments about pride?