DBrant

lol Now there's some excellent reasoning! So you believe only the parts of the Bible that "Jesus" finds convenient for you to believe, for the needs of the moment. I wonder what happens if Jesus tells you not to believe the parts of the Bible that say that he is your savior? Or the parts that say that he rose from the dead?

Also, I'd like to know how you can tell the difference between when Jesus guides you in your "picking and choosing," and when you make your own judgments.

BTW, you have no authority to spell savior with a "u" unless you're from the UK.

BadBadBad

RB,

I don't think you're going to tick off any atheists here. It's just that you're not going to win any debates. As a cafeteria christian, you now have to support what is inspired, what's true, what's not and why. If whole parts of the Bible aren't inspired and aren't true, you've got a big disadvantage in showing that doesn't taint the whole lot given the incredulous nature of what we find in the Bible. There's no Hell? Then why believe in Heaven?

Let's throw out Genesis, Exodus, Joshua. Leviticus? God really inspired page after page of doing the hokey pokey dance with the priests and the fat and the kidneys and burning sacrifices all for the sweet saviour on to the Lord? No I don't believe it either.

Is God the biggest mass murder in history? Perhaps the murdering stories in the OT aren't true at all, just fable. Perhaps the murdering really did go on, but the authors just lied or were ignorant when they said God was behind it all. Maybe all the murdering wasn't done by righteous men of God, just religious zealots 1000 times worse than Osama Bin Laden. No, I don't believe it either.

But then, I don't believe in God at all. I can therefore be 100% consistent when I read the Bible. Did God create the universe 6000 years ago in 6 days? No. Did God flood the world and kill all the inhabitants? No. Did Jesus cast devils into 2000 pigs and send them running off the cliff. No. Did Judas hang himself and also die falling off a cliff splitting his guts open? No. Did Jesus walk on water or feed thousands with a few fish? No. Was Jesus the son of God crucified, resurrected back to life in three days, well not quite three days, and taken up to the throne of God to be the father son and holy ghost? No. No, I don't believe it for all the same reasons all across the board.

RB, do you believe Jesus cast devils into 2000 pigs and sent them running off a cliff? This from the same authors that tell us dead people came up from the grave and went running through the streets. What happened to those saints anyway? Were they wearing the rotting clothes they died in, or were they naked? Did they pick up with their lives, or did they just go back to their graves once all the hoopla with Jesus was over? Then in almost the same breath the same authors tell us a man is killed and then resurrected as God. The story is incredulous as it is, but if you admit that the Bible as a whole is not just corrupted by copyist typos and translations but the corrupted nature of the ignorant power hungry men and churches that wrote it, believe it if you will, but forgive us if we don't take your arguments seriously.

Rational BAC

I agree with you. I don't believe in any of that crap. (Well probably should reread your post to make sure about that)

Still a Christian---born aginner too. (Not all born aginners have completely lost their ability to reason and make rational choices)

I don't see your problem. It is so easy and quite logical to be a cafeteria Christian. -----If you believe in a personal saviour, then there is no doubt that Jesus is guiding you in all things---including separating the crapola from the divine in the Bible.

And I take myself very seriously.

DBrant

Again, this reasoning is absurdly circular: you say that Jesus guides you in interpreting the Bible, but it's the Bible itself that tells you about Jesus!

Rational BAC

I have no problem with that.

Why do you have a problem with that?---(logic 101 circular reasoning aside?)

7thangel

Any one who will not go receive eternal life will just return to dust and cease to exist. It is literally like when your asleep - your thought perish.

Quote:

No Free Will? So I don't have any obligation to get past God's heart hardening tricks? I mean like Paul said, who am I to question my potter? I don't have any obligation to even attempt to believe in God? All the do good christians that have tried to spread the Gospel and convert us heathens are really wasting their time way more than they thought?

Not really wasting time. Because "santicification" comes through experience. In some instances, God does not forgive nor give chances for repentace because they are not chosen. To us, who have limited knowledge, we hope that our works may come into fruition. And when we are given knowledge of God that it is futile witnessing to a certain person, we just let God's will and hope for His mercy.

To tell you the truth. Predestination cleanses us of sin. If we really understand predestination, that is how we are really cleansed from sin. We became saved according to God's purpose on Christ. So it is not stupid that if you come to understand God's salvation through Christ, we become sinless.

Because we come to realize that God is the one really working in our being. Thus how Christ lives in us -- because we become vessels that exist according to the purpose of God through Christ.

DBrant

"logical reasoning aside"?! Your reasoning is the problem.

What I'm trying to say is, you seem to be logical and analytical about the Old Testament (in fact, you reject most of it). So why does the story of Jesus deserve any more of your belief than the OT? How are the gospels any less absurd?

It just seems like all you've done is fallen prey to the happenin' pop-religion of Jesus the "personal saviour," which is something that the original authors of the Bible would never have intended.

BadBadBad

Personally, I do have more respect for people who can take something from the Bible and leave the rest of the crap that's in there. At least we can start a discussion on the same playing field of reality. If there is a God, as described in the Bible, it's infinitely beyond our comprehension. If reading the Gospels gives you some comfort in thinking you can put your finger on God and define the concept. Great. If believing in Heaven gives you some hope for this life, good for you.

Just don't point to the Gospels and show me the resurrection story and expect me to believe it. Don't expect me to believe it any more than suicidal demon possessed pigs, fires of hell, gnashing of teeth, walking on water, or feeding the multitude with a loaf of bread, walking dead saints from the grave, and on and on. All of these stories are on the same level of incredulity. All of them are written by the same authors in the same book. All of them equally taint the author and the book for not being a reliable witness to supernatural events. None of these stories are any more credible than the other, and if you believe one, you should have no problem believing the others. You've moved your thought train into the supernatural where anything can happen.

So, to get back to the OP, you either have to accuse God of being the biggest mass murderer in history, ie the Bible is truth as inspired by God himself, or you have to admit the Bible is false and corrupted by the ignorant, lying, and power hungry men that wrote it and transmitted it through the ages. As a false and corrupted document, you have to admit it is the poorest of poor sources to reliably establish factual truth with respect to stories of the supernatural.

BadBadBad

And this belief of yours is based upon what? Is it derived from the same book that tells us there is a Hell, and if you don't believe in God you'll be tortured there for eternity?

What do you mean "sanctification." I had to look that up. Sanctification - the state of being sanctified b : the state of growing in divine grace as a result of Christian commitment after baptism or conversion

Sanctification, ie being saved. I thought you and Paul said sanctification was predestined by God. Now you're saying it comes through experience. Which is it? If you stick with predestined, I think I can say pretty conclusively you evangelists are wasting your time. Moses himself couldn't convince Pharoah even with the magic tricks of an omnipotent God. God's heart hardening is pretty tough to overcome.

Well now you're back to being consistent. So why all the trouble about sin in our society for all throughout history? God hardens my heart against God. I don't believe in God because God purposely hardened my heart against himself. I sin because I don't recognize his righteous authority and guidance on morality. I don't have a choice to repent or to receive his grace and mercy because who am I to question God my mighty potter. If you've been chosen to be blessed and shown mercy, again who cares about sin? Your destiny is preset. Your sins are predestined to forgiveness and mercy. Why the big deal on sin? Authors of the Bible and 2000 years of christians just missed the boat on sin and Hell, but we should believe them about God?

I don't think your convincing anyone here.

Rational BAC

Not sure anymore who I am answering with this one. So consider this just a general answer.

I am not a fundie, ----You cannot shock me with anything you find in the Bible, no matter how barbaric it is. I can never be trapped into trying to defend the entire Bible literally---In fact I am totally in agreement with those who pick apart the Bible piece by piece and show the absurdity of a lot of it----I do the same thing myself.

I don't believe in the Bible in that way. And I know that very many of the Christians atheists and agnostics happen to come in contact with as a general rule are fundies----so it is very easy for them to lose perspective on this subject.

Fundies are a minority of Christianity.------a very loud and noisy and many times obnoxious minority, but a minority nevertheless.
Mainstream Protestants are for the most part cafeteria Christians, pickers and choosers just like myself-----------they just don't broadcast it a lot.

We can be belittled by both sides, but I think cafeteria Christians choose the most rational solution to a perplexing question. And a very easy solution to justify.