Freethought & Rationalism Archive

crocodile deathroll · 11-19-2002, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zentraedi:
<strong>
They don't have to be religious speculations. You can come up with a speculation that is not religious.</strong>

Then why does the same old tired and unsatisfying "God did it" answer pop up time and time again.

Zentraedi · 11-21-2002, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Lone Ranger:
<strong>[b]

Because those entities which didn't care whether they lived or died tended not to produce descendents.

Cheers,

Michael</strong>

I meant to say " Why do we strive, not to die." Meaning the same as "Why do we strive to live?", once again.

Zentraedi · 11-21-2002, 03:26 AM

DNAunion: Well, it's not quite that simple - there is the second law of thermodynamics to take into account.

Complex arrangements of matter tend to become less ordered over time, spontaneously. Something (an input of energy, and in many cases, of information as well) has to "fight" against that tendency in order for matter to become more complex.

In the case of stars (which you mention next), it is gravity that does the work of creating a more ordered state from a less ordered state. But gravity doesn't do anything meaningful for the objects related to the transition from non-life to life (such as RNA molecules).

Zentraedi: Okay, I need help with the logic on this. Something is not adding up here. The universe wants to fall to less complex state right? But isn't gravity part of the universe? And if the effects of gravity are decreasing entropy, wouldn't it rely on whether the universe is open or closed to disprove a more complex universe overall, and not just what the matter/energy like to do? I mean from the big bang to now hasn't the universe become more complex through the efforts of gravity? And didn't gravity indirectly produce the molecules for life?

DNAunion · 11-21-2002, 02:36 PM

Quote:

DNAunion: Well, it's not quite that simple - there is the second law of thermodynamics to take into account.

Complex arrangements of matter tend to become less ordered over time, spontaneously. Something (an input of energy, and in many cases, of information as well) has to "fight" against that tendency in order for matter to become more complex.

In the case of stars (which you mention next), it is gravity that does the work of creating a more ordered state from a less ordered state. But gravity doesn't do anything meaningful for the objects related to the transition from non-life to life (such as RNA molecules).

Quote:

Zentraedi: Okay, I need help with the logic on this. Something is not adding up here. The universe wants to fall to less complex state right?

DNAunion: Basically, yes. The total entropy (disorder) of the Universe increases with every natural reaction that occurs within it.

Quote:

Zentraedi: And if the effects of gravity are decreasing entropy, wouldn't it rely on whether the universe is open or closed to disprove a more complex universe overall, and not just what the matter/energy like to do?

DNAunion: ?!?!?!?!

Quote:

Zentraedi: I mean from the big bang to now hasn't the universe become more complex through the efforts of gravity?

DNAunion: Localized pockets within the Universe experienced increases in order and complexity: the Universe's total entropy always increases (or at least remains constant).

Quote:

Zentraedi: And didn't gravity indirectly produce the molecules for life?

DNAunion: Twice removed. No, make that three times removed. No, make that a thousand times removed. No, make that...

There isn't much one could come up with that gravity didn't have a hand in, in some way or another. Gravity helped produce the computer I am typing on - in a very indirect manner. But in general, one wouldn't say that. Gravity didn't play a meaningful role in the formation of the RNA or proteins of life.

Zentraedi · 11-21-2002, 10:15 PM

Zentraedi: And if the effects of gravity are decreasing entropy, wouldn't it rely on whether the universe is open or closed to disprove a more complex universe overall, and not just what the matter/energy like to do?

DNAunion: ?!?!?!?!

Zentraedi: If the universe is closed then the effects of gravity will be replentished. If that is the case then gravity will infinitely revitalize the new energy needed. The universe will never die.

Zentraedi · 11-21-2002, 10:20 PM

Zentraedi: And if you can't reproduce, what then?

DNAunion: Then you've changed the question.

Zentraedi: I believe its the same question minus one answer.

DNAunion · 11-22-2002, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Zentraedi: And if the effects of gravity are decreasing entropy, wouldn't it rely on whether the universe is open or closed to disprove a more complex universe overall, and not just what the matter/energy like to do?

Quote:

DNAunion: ?!?!?!?!

Quote:

Zentraedi: If the universe is closed then the effects of gravity will be replentished. If that is the case then gravity will infinitely revitalize the new energy needed. The universe will never die.

DNAunion: ?!?!?!?!?!

Let's start by clarifying one set of terms. What do you mean when you compare/contrast an open universe to a closed universe? Are you talking about 2 of the 3 main possible geometries: open, flat, and closed? If so, the closed geometry is the one that is supposed to die - in a big crunch (or gnab gib).

DNAunion · 11-22-2002, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Zentraedi: And if you can't reproduce, what then?

Quote:

DNAunion: Then you've changed the question.

Quote:

Zentraedi: I believe its the same question minus one answer.

DNAunion: No, I answered both your original and now your new questions...and quite precisely, I might add.

Zentraedi · 02-05-2003, 12:49 AM

to DNAunion:

An open universe will die with no energy left one day, gravity will lose its hold on all, but if closed the universe will never do this. That would mean an infinite repeat of energy created by gravity. If that is the case then your arguement of the second law of thermo-dynamics will not be an issue to whether the universe ultimately likes to fall to disorder. Gravity is the only factor that has kept the universe full of energy.

Zentraedi · 02-05-2003, 12:55 AM

to DNAunion:

If your purpose to life is to reproduce and you can't, you still have the question of what is the purpose to life? You now know it can't be just to reproduce, or what would be your reason for living?

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11-21-2002, 03:26 AM	#33
Zentraedi Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Anytown, USA Posts: 103	DNAunion: Well, it's not quite that simple - there is the second law of thermodynamics to take into account. Complex arrangements of matter tend to become less ordered over time, spontaneously. Something (an input of energy, and in many cases, of information as well) has to "fight" against that tendency in order for matter to become more complex. In the case of stars (which you mention next), it is gravity that does the work of creating a more ordered state from a less ordered state. But gravity doesn't do anything meaningful for the objects related to the transition from non-life to life (such as RNA molecules). Zentraedi: Okay, I need help with the logic on this. Something is not adding up here. The universe wants to fall to less complex state right? But isn't gravity part of the universe? And if the effects of gravity are decreasing entropy, wouldn't it rely on whether the universe is open or closed to disprove a more complex universe overall, and not just what the matter/energy like to do? I mean from the big bang to now hasn't the universe become more complex through the efforts of gravity? And didn't gravity indirectly produce the molecules for life?

11-21-2002, 10:15 PM	#35
Zentraedi Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Anytown, USA Posts: 103	Zentraedi: And if the effects of gravity are decreasing entropy, wouldn't it rely on whether the universe is open or closed to disprove a more complex universe overall, and not just what the matter/energy like to do? DNAunion: ?!?!?!?! Zentraedi: If the universe is closed then the effects of gravity will be replentished. If that is the case then gravity will infinitely revitalize the new energy needed. The universe will never die.

11-21-2002, 10:20 PM	#36
Zentraedi Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Anytown, USA Posts: 103	Zentraedi: And if you can't reproduce, what then? DNAunion: Then you've changed the question. Zentraedi: I believe its the same question minus one answer.

02-05-2003, 12:49 AM	#39
Zentraedi Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Anytown, USA Posts: 103	to DNAunion: An open universe will die with no energy left one day, gravity will lose its hold on all, but if closed the universe will never do this. That would mean an infinite repeat of energy created by gravity. If that is the case then your arguement of the second law of thermo-dynamics will not be an issue to whether the universe ultimately likes to fall to disorder. Gravity is the only factor that has kept the universe full of energy.

02-05-2003, 12:55 AM	#40
Zentraedi Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Anytown, USA Posts: 103	to DNAunion: If your purpose to life is to reproduce and you can't, you still have the question of what is the purpose to life? You now know it can't be just to reproduce, or what would be your reason for living?

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