Freethought & Rationalism Archive

chimaira · 04-15-2003, 02:20 AM

hello are all, you well? here a word of the Gospel apocryphal book of Thomas,

Jesus called to his disciples: "Compare, and say to me to me who I am similar" to Simon Peter says to him: "You are similar to an angel right! "Matthew says to him: "You are similar to a wise man and philosopher! "Thomas says to him: "Main, to which you are similar, so that I say it, my face does not manage absolutely to seize it"

Jesus known as: "I am not your Master, because you drank; you enivr� yourself bubbling source which is with me and which I spread. Then it took it and deviated; it tells him three words. And, when Thomas returned towards his companions, they questioned it: "What did Jesus say to you? "and Thomas answered them: "If I say only one of the words to you that he said to me, you will take stones and will throw them to me, and a fire will leave the stones and will consume you !

good day with you

)

Toto · 04-15-2003, 11:27 AM

No need to do your own translation. Try this:

http://www.misericordia.edu/users/da...omas/Trans.htm

Quote:

13 Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to something and tell me what I am like."

Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a just messenger." [angel = messenger of god]

Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher."

Thomas said to him, "Teacher, my mouth is utterly unable to say what you are like."

Jesus said, "I am not your teacher. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring that I have tended."

And he took him, and withdrew, and spoke three sayings to him. When Thomas came back to his friends they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?"

Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me, you will pick up rocks and stone me, and fire will come from the rocks and devour you."

So what do you make of this? Does "Jesus" here sound like a human teacher, a crazy zen master, or a mythological being? Is it a little morality tale from Gnostics warning against trying to make left-brained sense of religion? Is it a warning against the uninitiated trying to understand the true meaning of Jesus? Is it a put down of Peter and Matthew and the followers of their branches of early Christianity?

Or were these people just drunk and stoned and out in the sun too long?

edited to add:

I guess you could say that what Jesus told Thomas in secret was the he was God - a blasphemy that would get Thomas stoned under Jewish law if he said it to Peter and Matthew; but if it were true, the stones might turn into fireballs and burn those who threw them. But what are the three things? That Jesus is God, that you too are God if you only realize it, and what else? That there is no God?

chimaira · 04-15-2003, 11:49 AM

Merci Je crois que J�sus pr�s l� au voulut dire cela
pour le suivre est risqu�, comme qu'il indique �galement : :
Heureux ils ont pers�cut� pour la justice, parce que le
royaume des cieux est � eux. Heureux �tes vous quand on vous
insultera, celui-l� vous pers�cuterez, et celui-l� faussement
indiquera contre vous toute la sorte d'infamie aux causes de moi
(...)"evangile de Mattiew, 5:3-11. Si J�sus faisait l� des
pr�visions, il s'est gard� avec une prudence toute � son honneur
pour indiquer une date. il a eu le raisobn sur ce point, parce
que le doux ne poss�dent pas la terre et rien n'indique seulement ce
risqeurait pour arriver dans un futur proche. Mais ce texte est
int�r�ssant pour, �tant donn� l'importance que les chr�tiens lui
apportent, il est dans les pratiques une description d'id�al
chr�tien. Un chr�tien inhale pour �tre mou, et il est
positif. Mais il inhale �galement pour �tre pers�cut�,
offensant, afflig�, etc... . C'est une question �videmment
d'un mensonge parfum� de cas, puisqu'il est rare au rassemblement
pers�cut� ou aux victimes du particuili�rement d'insultes
heureuses. Le r�sultat de ce passage des �critures et de
d'autres, en tant que par exemple lui "je je vous dis de pour ne pas
me tenir jusqu'� les moyennes : � l'oppos�, quelqu'un que
vous il donne un soufflet sur la joue droite, l'�tirent encore
l'autre "(evangile de Mattieu, 5:39), est que la religion chr�tienne
est une religion des loosers. La forme chr�tienne est perdre,
de pr�f�rence un martyre, une victime de la violence qui ne s'est
pas d�fendue et pr�f�r� au snivel sur sa sorte tout en soulevant
l'ieux au ciel pour une pri�re plut�t qu'� l'essai de lui-m�me
certains pour s'�teindre le bye

chimaira · 04-15-2003, 12:00 PM

Thank-you I believe that J�sus near there to the voulut to say that to follow it is risked, as that it
indicates equally: : Happy they persecuted for justice, because the kingdom of the skies is to them. Happy
are you when one will insult you, that one will persecute you, and that one falsely will indicate against you
all to go out it infamy to the causes of me (...)"evangile of Mattiew, 5:3-11. If J�sus did there
anticipations, it kept himself with a prudence all to his honor to indicate a date. it had the raisobn on this
point, because the soft one do not possess the earth and nothing does not indicate only this risqeurait to
arrive in a near future. But this text is int�r�ssant for, being given importance that the Christians bring
to him, it is in the practices an ideal description Christian. A Christian inhales to be soft, and it is
positive. But it inhales equally to be persecuted, offending, afflicted, etc... . This a question evidently
of a lie perfumed cases, since it rare to the rassemblement persecuted or to the victims of the
particuili�rement of happy insults. The result of this passage of the writings and of others, as a for
example him "I I say you of not to hold me to the averages: to the opposed, someone that you it gives a
soufflet on the upright cheek, the �tirent again the other " (Gospel of Mattieu, 5:39), is that the Christian
religion is a religion of the loosers. The Christian form is to lose, preferably an agony, a victim of the
violence that did not defend itself and preferred to the snivel on his sort all while raising the ieux to the
sky for a prayer rather than to the essay of himself certain to extinguish itself the bye

beastmaster · 04-15-2003, 12:35 PM

The canonical comparison point is GMatthew:

Quote:

Matt 16:13-20
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

From GMatthew it appears that oral tradition associated this episode with the revelation of Jesus's unique divine nature to a favored disciple (Simon Peter in the Bible; Judas Thomas in GThomas). Likely, the "three secret words" of GThomas concern Jesus's secret identity. Both versions associate the revelation of Jesus's true nature with persecution.

Toto, check out Peter Kirby's page of commentary on GThomas 13. Some say the three words are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. FWIW, R. McL. Wilson's less obvious theory on the three words:

Quote:

"As for the three words spoken secretly to Thomas, conveying Jesus's hidden identity, they are probably the three secret words on which, according to the Naassenes, the existence of the world depended: Kaulakau, Saulasau, Zeesar. [Hippolytus, Refutation v.8.4. Kaulakau, they said, was Adamas, primal man, 'the being who is on high' . . . Saulasau, mortal man here below; Zeesar, the Jordan which flows upward.] (In fact, these three words are corruptions of the Hebrew phrases in Isaiah 28.10, 13, translated 'Line upon line, precept upon precept, there a little' - but their origin was probably forgotten.) The followers of the Gnostic Basilides are said to have taught that Jesus descended 'in the name of Kaulakau'. [Irenaeus, Heresies i.24.6.] The fire that would come out of the stones is perhaps the fire of Saying 10. There is in any case ample attestation of the belief that the untimely divulging of a holy mystery can be as destructive as fire." (Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament, pp. 118-119)

mike_decock · 04-15-2003, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
But what are the three things? That Jesus is God, that you too are God if you only realize it, and what else? That there is no God?

I don't know a whole lot about the Gnostic beliefs, but those "three words" could be something along those lines.

It just struck me that, perhaps, the narrative of the "Doubting Thomas" could be an anti-Gnostic interpolation to refute the Gnostic teachings in the Gospel of Thomas.

John 20:25
The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he [Thomas] said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Thomas doubted the divinity of Jesus, just like the Gnostics.

-Mike...

chimaira · 04-15-2003, 04:06 PM

xodus ch 3 v 15: God says again to Mo�se: You will speak thus to the isra�l children: THE ETERNAL one, the God of your fathers, the abraham God, the isaac God and the God of Jacob, sends me towards you. Here my name for eternity, here my generation name in generation.

of generation in generation it is says J�sus it suddenly would propose a new one "name" ?

Not said J�sus it t: Go, done all the nations of the disciples, the baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, (Matthieu ch 28 v 18).

In the majority of the churches one hears "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" now if the Christian seen in this passage a divinity of J�sus, that puts a problem for a reason among so many others but the first one is that the book of the deut�ronome chapter 13 v 1-5: S�il s��l�ve in the middle of you a prophet or a pensive one

13:2 and qu�il there have accomplishment of the sign or prodigy of which it t�a spoken while saying: let us Go after d�autres gods, -gods that you not at all know, -and let us serve them!

13:3 you n��couteras not the words of this prophet or of this pensive one, for c�est l��ternel, your God, that puts you to l��preuve to know if you like l��ternel, your God, of all your heart and of all your soul.

13:4 will go You after l��ternel, your God, and you will fear it; you will observe its orders, you will obey his voice, you will serve it, and you will attach yourself to him.

13:5 This prophet or this pensive one will be punished death.

I have a theory to meditate on this that precedes, Abraham means in Hebrew it "father of the nations". The two first letters of his name are l"abr�viation Abba, that is "father" in Hebrew. Isaac is the abraham son. And Jacob, that is equally "Israel" known as "holy nation" (exodus 19:6). From that time was able to add.

bye

04-15-2003, 02:20 AM	#1
chimaira Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: France Posts: 169	the secrecy of Thomas hello are all, you well? here a word of the Gospel apocryphal book of Thomas, Jesus called to his disciples: "Compare, and say to me to me who I am similar" to Simon Peter says to him: "You are similar to an angel right! "Matthew says to him: "You are similar to a wise man and philosopher! "Thomas says to him: "Main, to which you are similar, so that I say it, my face does not manage absolutely to seize it" Jesus known as: "I am not your Master, because you drank; you enivr� yourself bubbling source which is with me and which I spread. Then it took it and deviated; it tells him three words. And, when Thomas returned towards his companions, they questioned it: "What did Jesus say to you? "and Thomas answered them: "If I say only one of the words to you that he said to me, you will take stones and will throw them to me, and a fire will leave the stones and will consume you ! good day with you )

04-15-2003, 11:49 AM	#3
chimaira Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: France Posts: 169	hello toto Merci Je crois que J�sus pr�s l� au voulut dire cela pour le suivre est risqu�, comme qu'il indique �galement : : Heureux ils ont pers�cut� pour la justice, parce que le royaume des cieux est � eux. Heureux �tes vous quand on vous insultera, celui-l� vous pers�cuterez, et celui-l� faussement indiquera contre vous toute la sorte d'infamie aux causes de moi (...)"evangile de Mattiew, 5:3-11. Si J�sus faisait l� des pr�visions, il s'est gard� avec une prudence toute � son honneur pour indiquer une date. il a eu le raisobn sur ce point, parce que le doux ne poss�dent pas la terre et rien n'indique seulement ce risqeurait pour arriver dans un futur proche. Mais ce texte est int�r�ssant pour, �tant donn� l'importance que les chr�tiens lui apportent, il est dans les pratiques une description d'id�al chr�tien. Un chr�tien inhale pour �tre mou, et il est positif. Mais il inhale �galement pour �tre pers�cut�, offensant, afflig�, etc... . C'est une question �videmment d'un mensonge parfum� de cas, puisqu'il est rare au rassemblement pers�cut� ou aux victimes du particuili�rement d'insultes heureuses. Le r�sultat de ce passage des �critures et de d'autres, en tant que par exemple lui "je je vous dis de pour ne pas me tenir jusqu'� les moyennes : � l'oppos�, quelqu'un que vous il donne un soufflet sur la joue droite, l'�tirent encore l'autre "(evangile de Mattieu, 5:39), est que la religion chr�tienne est une religion des loosers. La forme chr�tienne est perdre, de pr�f�rence un martyre, une victime de la violence qui ne s'est pas d�fendue et pr�f�r� au snivel sur sa sorte tout en soulevant l'ieux au ciel pour une pri�re plut�t qu'� l'essai de lui-m�me certains pour s'�teindre le bye

04-15-2003, 12:00 PM	#4
chimaira Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: France Posts: 169	hello toto Thank-you I believe that J�sus near there to the voulut to say that to follow it is risked, as that it indicates equally: : Happy they persecuted for justice, because the kingdom of the skies is to them. Happy are you when one will insult you, that one will persecute you, and that one falsely will indicate against you all to go out it infamy to the causes of me (...)"evangile of Mattiew, 5:3-11. If J�sus did there anticipations, it kept himself with a prudence all to his honor to indicate a date. it had the raisobn on this point, because the soft one do not possess the earth and nothing does not indicate only this risqeurait to arrive in a near future. But this text is int�r�ssant for, being given importance that the Christians bring to him, it is in the practices an ideal description Christian. A Christian inhales to be soft, and it is positive. But it inhales equally to be persecuted, offending, afflicted, etc... . This a question evidently of a lie perfumed cases, since it rare to the rassemblement persecuted or to the victims of the particuili�rement of happy insults. The result of this passage of the writings and of others, as a for example him "I I say you of not to hold me to the averages: to the opposed, someone that you it gives a soufflet on the upright cheek, the �tirent again the other " (Gospel of Mattieu, 5:39), is that the Christian religion is a religion of the loosers. The Christian form is to lose, preferably an agony, a victim of the violence that did not defend itself and preferred to the snivel on his sort all while raising the ieux to the sky for a prayer rather than to the essay of himself certain to extinguish itself the bye

04-15-2003, 04:06 PM	#7
chimaira Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: France Posts: 169	hello xodus ch 3 v 15: God says again to Mo�se: You will speak thus to the isra�l children: THE ETERNAL one, the God of your fathers, the abraham God, the isaac God and the God of Jacob, sends me towards you. Here my name for eternity, here my generation name in generation. of generation in generation it is says J�sus it suddenly would propose a new one "name" ? Not said J�sus it t: Go, done all the nations of the disciples, the baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, (Matthieu ch 28 v 18). In the majority of the churches one hears "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" now if the Christian seen in this passage a divinity of J�sus, that puts a problem for a reason among so many others but the first one is that the book of the deut�ronome chapter 13 v 1-5: S�il s��l�ve in the middle of you a prophet or a pensive one 13:2 and qu�il there have accomplishment of the sign or prodigy of which it t�a spoken while saying: let us Go after d�autres gods, -gods that you not at all know, -and let us serve them! 13:3 you n��couteras not the words of this prophet or of this pensive one, for c�est l��ternel, your God, that puts you to l��preuve to know if you like l��ternel, your God, of all your heart and of all your soul. 13:4 will go You after l��ternel, your God, and you will fear it; you will observe its orders, you will obey his voice, you will serve it, and you will attach yourself to him. 13:5 This prophet or this pensive one will be punished death. I have a theory to meditate on this that precedes, Abraham means in Hebrew it "father of the nations". The two first letters of his name are l"abr�viation Abba, that is "father" in Hebrew. Isaac is the abraham son. And Jacob, that is equally "Israel" known as "holy nation" (exodus 19:6). From that time was able to add. bye

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