Kamchatka

Posted by Free12Thinker 5/10/02; "My proof lies in logic and reason, not blind trust."

It is amusing how so many atheists think they somehow have the logic and reason market cornered. Those atheists remind me of most of the muslims I have debated over the years. Every one of them based their islam on logic and reason.

The difference between those atheists and muslims is the muslims are more logical and reasoned. Muslims acknowledge the existence of the infidel. They have reasoned through their islam that the infidel must be dominated. They understand the adversary. Meanwhile the atheist belittles, and disrespects the adversary, relying on no god belief.

The amusing part is the atheist accuses the theist of blind faith. Keep clicking your heals together and saying, "there is no god."

It won't be long now.

Philosoft

Did they actually do this or did they just claim to do this? Big difference, as I'm sure you know.

<strong> And how does one determine this?

<strong> Ah, yes. A foolproof standard of logic and reason if I ever saw one. You know, I acknowledge the existence of Internet Infidels; do I get half-credit?

<strong> Well, at least I have something to rely on. No, wait a minute...

<strong> So if I keep clicking, there really won't be a god? This is getting tiring. How much longer?

Kamchatka

Ender,

You make some good points in dissecting my "pathetic" argument.

I was not specific enough with my assertion that we are born with god belief.

In the vast majority of the cases humans are born totally dependent on their mothers. That total dependence combines with the characteristics of human cognizance to form god belief. We are born totally dependent and with human cognizance. Therefore we are born with god belief.

I agree on certain levels that god belief can be described as our desire to be god. It can similarly be described as our desire to be totally cognizant.
On this level the atheist and the theist aspire to the same lofty goal.

Humanity as a whole is experiencing the process of cognition which includes the existence of gods on several levels.

There may come a time when babies are born with no god belief. That time has not come.

Kamchatka

Philosoft,

Is my point so "trivial"?

Aren't theists and atheists attempting to explain the same thing?

Why?

Is it so trivial to appear to disagree with everyone and all sides in order to show everyone how little disagreement there really is?

My motive is to disturb the shit and make the flies utilize their wings.

philechat

Something like "the gods exist in human consciousness"?

So now the question: Do the gods exist before the existence of human beings? Or are they totally dependent upon the human consciousness?

So, similarly, unicorns, elves, mermaids, and anime characters "exist", because many people think about them?

And the 10 god(ess)es I invented in my childhood exist as well?

Actually I have no trouble accepting that while remaining an atheist.

Kamchatka

Theli,

Call it what you want: good and bad, right and wrong, love and hate.

Or do you deny the existence of these parameters also.

And don't try to throw out the "look it's another christian trying to tell us the difference between right and wrong" song.

All I'm saying is we are born with god belief, gods exist, and those gods that rely on worship for their power are not omnipotent but are none the less quite powerful.

To ignore their existence is dangerous. To suggest that only god belief exists and not the god is foolish.

Adrian Selby

Kam, I have a 2 month old daughter, how could you tell she has a God belief? I don't see much evidence of any kind of belief except that she associates the sound of my voice and face with comfort.

Adrian

Samhain

Kamchatka:

Yes, you must be an authority on logic and intelligence; you who have failed to support your ridiculous assertions with anything which could be called evidence. The preachings of a person hundreds of years dead does not create a "god" it creates the idea of a god, not an actual god-entity itself.

My belief in the tangible existence of a fictional character from a sci-fi novel does not make that character any more real in reality. The idea that that character is a real entity is actualized, but the entity itself is not. Therefore we can see that the idea of god(s) exist, or "god belief" exists, but god(s) themselves do not exist as anything more than words on paper. The religious followers of Islam hold the power, allah as an entity holds no power at all. Perhaps we could go so far as to say that the delusions of the existence of allah hold the power, but still, allah as the entity which it is portrayed does not exist, and thus, holds no tangible power. The delusions and the belief hold the power, not the god(s) themselves.

No, no. Correction: No amount of "no god belief" will erase allah's existence as a fictional character as imagined in the minds of the writers and the followers. Sorry, allah as portrayed, does not exist. Belief, unfortunately, does.

Theli

Kamchatka...

Call what good or bad?
Please include some quotes when posting.

I deny them as objective parameters, yes.
I don't see how they could exist outside our own minds.

Have I offended you in some way?
If so, when?

How can you be born with a belief in something you don't even know the concept of.
And BTW, wich god is everyone born believing in?

I didn't know you were a polytheist. Not all gods are compatible with each other. There can't be 2 "sole creators". Not 2 "only god"'s.
Again, wich gods exist and how do you know?

Doesn't all? Gods don't have any power other than that wich comes from people believing in them.
Gods doesn't exist outside the minds of people.

Is that supposed to be a threat?

Why should I believe a single word you are saying?

brighid

Free12thinker -

You must be a prophet! It seems you were correct. Perhaps because of this accurate prediction we should start worshipping you as some sort of deity!!!

Brighid