xeren

Yeah, i did, i had a feeling i would receive more atheistic replies than theistic ones, but not one Christian(Amos doesn't count) has replied yet with a decent answer. I'll give it time.

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: xeren ]</p>

Amos

Perhaps true. I was born and raised in a Catholic environment with no protestants around to infest our peacefull tradition and beliefs (much like in Fiddler on the Roof). I also know that no atheist would object to our kind of belief and in fact no Catholic in my tradition would ever become an atheist because our religion was harmless and would never cause any conflict in believers. If anything they would just walk away and not go to Church which was OK and their choice. Of course we were Catholic and the question if we were Christian was never asked so no answer was required. The bible was never read nor did we even have one (to this day I never read the OT and I don't think I ever will).

In Canada I have become exposed to protestants (we live in Gods country too!) and since then I have come to understand that they are all wrong in their religion and idea of salvation and I actually know why they are wrong. Sure they are good people and good neighbors but wrong about their idea of God.

If anything I am more of a Pantheist but I/we do go to Church. My wife likes to go and I sometimes go with her.

I think that American Catholics are more fanatic because of the protestant influence. The Catholic Convert board is an example of this and this same can be said about Northern Ireland.

monkey mind

Could you explain what you mean? I know that in Buddhism there are innumerable heavens and hells. It's just that, instead of thinking of hell as a place that sits around waiting for people to be sent down, it is a place that is created from the seeds of your own karma. However, it is still believed that these places are real, as real as where we are right now.

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: emptyway ]</p>

Vanderzyden

First, you must realize what kind of question you are asking. This is a "touchy" topic: almost any response draws emotional reactions. So, do not get angry at me for what I am about to relay to you. I did not make things this way.

At one level, I agree with one poster here. Hell, as it is commonly called, is not so much a place as it is a choice. In his book, "The Divine Conspiracy", Dallas Willard has said that God will not keep anyone out of heaven who wants to be there--it is a matter of choice.

C.S. Lewis put it this way:

Separation from God does not result directly from disbelief in Jesus as savior. Belief in him provides extraction from our desperate situation. However, each one of already stands in judgment for what we have done. We have it from Jesus himself:

All of us--each and every person--is corrupt. Each day we regret some of the things we have done. We have these regrets because we know they are wrong (whether we admit it explicitly, or not). It is upon this basis that God makes his determination.

Belief in Jesus--who he is and why he came--is a "get out of jail free card". That jail is the "place" where men and women see themselves as gods. It is a place where individualism and pride prevail. Jesus came to tell us how we can live a life that is really free. Not easy. But free.

Vanderzyden

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: Vanderzyden ]</p>

Amos

Very good monkey mind. In our mythology we color our own heaven during the involutionary period of life (their yin). By this I mean that prior to midlife we must polish our ego with education knowledge, skills and aquisitions (power, wealth and beauty of Gen.2:10-14). These are the seeds of our karma and they are seeds because in the clarity of heaven they become magnified into our richess of heaven. They are magnified only because our faculty of reason has increased by the size of our subconscious mind (our intuit mind is added to our rational mind or vice versa while reason prevails).

Heaven and hell are not real until the yang period begins which is post-menopauze and can be either good or bad (comedey or tragedy), or not even be part of life at all if hell is encountered before midlife through spiritual fornication. Both are religion specific although a rather negative outlook on life can creep into the lives of non-religious people after midlife.

In our religious terms it begins when we "enter the race." Before we enter the race it can be said that we are cold as in Rev.3:15 and there is nothing wrong with being cold (non-religious or just a cold Catholic or possibly a cold United Church member).

We enter the race when we get born again and from there we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling because if we don't we will remain in purgatory for the rest of our days and therefore are in hell if we never get finished working out our own salvation (running the race is equal to "no peace by night or by day" Rev.14:11). In other words, when born again we become lukewarm and if we do not come to a full understanding of who we really are (come full cirlce with the Alpha in the Omega) we will remain lukewarm and so die while in hell. Of course heaven is hot because only knowledge frees.

Degrees of heaven depend on our accumilation of power, wealth and beauty because they become liabilities after we enter the race and must be placed second to faith, hope and charity (the gifts of the magi). To get leverage here the Church invented indulgences and the Russian Orthodox Church send potential gaints to Siberia for no good reason other than mental torture aimed to increase the likelyhood of renewal.

Degrees of hell depend on the strenght of the wine in the cup of Gods wrath that we willfully forced upon ourselves (Rev.14:10). This cup is to be juxtaposed with the wedding in Cana and the wine that Jesus made.

So yes, heaven and hell are real and because they are real can they found in every mythology.

A good juxtaposition of heaven and hell are found in Rev.13 with the first and second beast. The first beast came from the celestial sea while the second beast came from the old earth. They depict rebirth from God as opposed to rebirth from carnal desire as per Jn.1:13. Notice that the first beast only lasts for 42 months which is the purgation period during which time the incarnate soul becomes exposed to the conscious mind.

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

K

Vanderzyden:

Why should anyone want to get out of a "jail" where individualism and pride prevail? That sounds much better than most definitions of Heaven I've seen.

RJS

Vanderzyden:

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

daemon

Sorry to spoil your preaching, but I'm afraid I'm not corrupt. Perhaps that should be revised to "All of us, except daemon, is corrupt." It would be more accurate that way.

hinduwoman

the question is why would not God send you to hell? God as your omnipotent creator can do anything he likes; so what is your excuse for questioning him? <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

xeren

Dude, are you being serious?

If not:

Good one, that's funny!

If so:

Good one, that's funny!