Jeremiah

If you believe that Paul was a real man, why do you believe Judas was fiction?

I Corinthians 11

23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."

If Paul did not know about Judas, why did he write, "on the night he was betrayed"?

Geoff Hudson

Because the prophet John was betrayed by the high priest Annas.

[ ] = read out, { } = read in

This is James speaking. He really did receive this from John on the night the latter was betrayed. It was not any later revelation given to the fictitious Paul.

23For I received from [the Lord] {John} what I also passed onto you. The [Lord] {prophet} [Jesus] {John} on the night he was betrayed, took bread,

24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is
[my body] {the pure bread of the Spirit}, which is for you; [do] {obey} this IN [remembrance of me] {the Spirit}".

25In the same way, after supper, he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant IN [my blood] {the Spirit}; [do] {obey} this, whenever you drink it, IN [remembrance of me] {the Spirit}".

26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you PROCLAIM [the Lord's death] {the Spirit} until he comes.

The key words are OBEY IN THE SPIRIT, as is PROCLAIM also.

Geoff

Toto

Even if this passage was not inserted by a later editor, the Greek text does not use the word "betrayed," nor doe it refer to Judas.

From G A Wells:

MortalWombat

The Greek verb "paradidomi" is more properly translated as "to hand over" or "to deliver up" rather than "to betray." The same verb is used in Romans 8:32 (He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all..) Obviously Paul did not imply that God betrayed his own son here, but he delivered or gave him up.

Edited to add: Looks like Toto beat me to it.

Geoff Hudson

quote:
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1. Translations represent Paul as speaking of the night when Jesus ‘was betrayed’ (1 Cor. 11:23), as if he were alluding to Judas, when the Greek has, not ‘was betrayed’ but ‘was delivered’. Schmithals comments (in chapter 16 of his The Theology of the First Christians, a 1997 English translation, published in America, from the German of 1994) that ‘Paul did not have in mind the betrayal by Judas at all, but rather was reaching back to the early Christian confessional tradition according to which God himself’ -- the passive voice of ‘was delivered’ implies, as so often in the Old Testament and in early Christian literature, that God was the agent, while obviating any need to mention him directly -- "delivered" Jesus into the darkness of human guilt and of death (cf. Isa.53:6; Rom.4:25: 8:32; Gal.2:20)’.
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Toto,

Betrayed or delivered up, it makes no historical difference. John was "delivered-up" to Pilate by the high priest Annas. I think when [Jesus] {John} complains that he was WITH THEM (meaning the high priests) every day teaching in the temple, then betrayed is not a bad interpretation. The above quote is theological garbage, that avoids the issue. I didn't realise Wells was so bad.

Geoff

MortalWombat

It does make a difference, because the Greek word used has a specific meaning, one which has been misused by translators who look at the Epistles through Gospel-tinted lenses, instead of translating them as they actually read.

Jeremiah

You lost me on the James part. I Corinthians chapter one states clearly that Paul is the author. If you claim that Paul did not exist or even Jesus for that matter, then the New Testament is fiction and why bother looking into it?

If you hold to a literal English translation to be delivered up, I can accept that this passage may not have a direct correlation to Judas. However, if Paul (or James) knew so much about Jesus as he writes in his letters, then does it make sense that he would be ignorant of the story of Judas?

Geoff Hudson

Delivered up meaning "delivered Jesus into the darkness of human guilt and of death" as in the Wells quotation is theological garbage that attempts to make the trial and execution of [Jesus] {John} completely mythological.

Yes, you are right. "Betrayed" goes with the disciple Judas, who just had to have a name meaning Jew. "Delivered up" conveys deliberate purpose by authorities bent on eliminating [Jesus] {John}. That fits my own ideas well.

[Jesus] {John} was arrested by the high priest Annas, taken to the Sanhedrin, tried and convicted as a false prophet, sentenced to death by stoning, taken before Pilate to gain his nodding approval of the sentence, and then taken to Golgotha where he was thrown down. The account of the execution in Mark is undoubtedly that of a stoning, edited to look like crucifixion. It was Pilate and Annas who subsequently "became friends".

Geoff