JGL53

I had been considering becoming 'veggie' too, but after reading this, I'm back on the bacon-for-breakfast, hamburger-for-lunch, steak-for-dinner diet.


http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/vegans.html

integral domain

Woo hoo! WELCOME to the "club"

JGL53: There's a BIG difference between Vegans and Vegetarians

Born Free

Integral Domain

Hey I might call on you to provide any tasty little recipes you might have come up with over the years Linda McCartney's meals are lovely but I can't live on frozen processed foods all my days and I'm a rotten cook at the best of times.

I've always loved the taste of meat but I was one of those people who preferred to not think about how it got on my plate. I would bury those thoughts, I was terrible, couldn't look at a whole chicken sitting in the roasting tray never mind cut it up or anything like that. We ate a lot of meat too, having it I'd say 5 nights out of 7.

I've got worse over the last few months as I realised how farming methods have deterioated significantly over the past few years especially for turkeys and chickens (now that people aren't eating as much red meat as before) that I couldn't stomach it anymore. I just thought nope count me out I can't do it.

I knew some chickens were kept in cage type things for their eggs but I didn't realise how bad it really is even for other types of hens and I didn't know that male chicks of the laying hen are disposed of straight after birth. I also didn't know that the whole slaughter procedure is wholly inadequate with some birds missing the stun bath, missing the knife or not dying straight away and being submerged in the boiling bath still alive. I cannot stand to think of it, it brings tears to my eyes.

So for me it's more of a personal protest in a lot of ways but even if all animals reared for meat were kept in decent conditions, their welfare looked after and their slaughter not so horrific I might still have become veggie. From what I've been reading it's a healthier diet anyway.

I'm joining the CIWF (compassion in world farming) as I would like to campaign for changes in a non violent way. I'm particularly appalled at the WTO and their stance on imports. I'd also like live markets and live export banned. I'd like to see internet market sites set up so there is less stress on the animals.

I know the whole world isn't going to stop eating meat that's not reality and I would always want people to have the choice but the whole intense factory farming method is completely barbaric as far as I'm concerned and needs better monitoring to ensure animals bred for meat aren't abused and have a better life in the process.

Oxymoron

Ha ha! ROTFLMAO. (You are kidding, aren't you?).

brighid

For those interested in purchasing free range, well cared for, and humanely harvested animal products there are a number of sources you can choose from. Many of the health, environmental and humane treatment issues can be avoided by purchasing from these type of business. Here are two we regularly purchases from:

http://www.vermontbeef.com - just beef products

http://www.grassorganic.com - beef, poultry, lamb, pork and dairy
products

More info on grass fed animal products, their benefits and where to find a supplier in your area:

http://www.eatwild.com/index.html

A chefs collaborative: http://www.chefnet.com

Also, for the veggies in the audience who take a moral position for vegetarianism do not forget the plight of the exploited, immigrant farm workers who are seriously abused by many of the industries that provide you with your tasty fruits and veggies. If you have a choice purchase from local growers whom you subsidize by purchasing a portion of their crop before the season begins, or from farms that either use a Union labor force or whom you know meet the minimum standards set by the Department of Labor.

Check out:

http://www.coopamerica.org/

An example of such a farm coop (and often mentioned in organic circles) is:

http://www.angelicorganics.org

Many of these men and women are brought to this country via illegal body brokers. They are housed in deplorable, unsanitary and over crowded conditions. They are paid despicable wages for VERY hard labor, often reporting to the fields at 2 am and working well past dark. Often times they aren’t even afforded water, food, or even bathroom breaks. They are exposed to dangerous pesticides, even housed in the same area with open pesticide barrels are kept. They have no health care coverage and are worked often to the point of breaking. Child labor is also used, under the same conditions.

This sort of circumstance is common: http://www.law.virginia.edu/home2002...02/workers.htm

http://archive.abcnews.go.com/sectio...industries801/

The Farm Workers Justice Fund: http://www.fwjustice.org/

Brighid

JGL53

Yeah. I eat meat because I like it and because I need the protein without all the carbs, not because Jesus commands it.

That was a parody site - and I think it's P.E.T.A. and their ilk that are being parodied.

Choosing to eat meat is 'immoral' or 'unethical'? OK. Abortion is murder - and homosexuality, artificial contraception , and non-belief in Jesus are all immoral, and yet I support legal abortion, think being homo or using contraceptive devices are legitimate choices, and I'm an atheist.

At least I'm consistent.

Oolon Colluphid

I’d just note that, whereas it is decidedly debatable as to whether animals are even capable of suffering in any meaningful sense, we know for sure that humans can. Since we're all so concerned about not causing harm, it seems that veggies need to get their own house in order too. Isn't there a saying about glass houses?

Cheers, DT

Oxymoron

Meaningful to whom, I wonder? Ah, you mean you, not the animal. Of course, since animals have no concept of meaning, pain can't mean anything to them, can it?
That debate is specious, and exists in your head purely as a salve for your conscience. Just like theists with their Gods telling them that they're OK people.

Yes of course, I forgot: abbatoir workers and meat packers, the best looked-after employees in the universe.

As if most meat-eaters give a s**t where their dinner comes from. Most veggies I know are actually considerably more pro-active in their choice of brands and supporting fair trade organisations.

Born Free

Also, for the veggies in the audience who take a moral position for vegetarianism do not forget the plight of the exploited, immigrant farm workers who are seriously abused by many of the industries that provide you with your tasty fruits and veggies.

I'm confused Brighid. It sounds very much like you want me to feel a little guilty for the crimes that humans do to other humans while providing me with tasty fruits and veggies???

I don't understand the comparison.

Why do you feel obliged to tell us this???

Is this a common reaction towards vegetarians who reject meat on a conscientious (sp) level??? Because I am now vegetarian on these grounds does it automatically follow that I will no longer care for my fellow human???

You might just be trying to warn us and if so I have read it the wrong way but I think not, that paragraph sounds sour.

It's awful that those people are going through this but how this ties in with a moral objection from a vegetarian is beyond me.

I've explained my reasons for not eating factory farmed meat, I am one of these people that just can't handle it anymore now I know the full truth.

True I've been quite graphic but these are things that I felt explained my position. If anyone feels it's too graphic then I apologise and I should stress I don't think less of anyone that does eat that meat. I will endeavour to have it removed if it's too upsetting. I am not on the moral high horse at all.

Ordinary people aren't to blame, it's the big money making corporations that won't see animal welfare put before profits that are to blame. Same as I'm not to blame for what humans do to humans to give me vegetables.

Lobstrosity

Come on, Darwin, you of all people should know that suffering is something any active animal capable of learned behavior must be able to experience if it is to maximize its chances of survival. You know what happens to humans who can't experience pain but still retain full capabilities for locomotion? Leprosy. You injure yourself without even knowing it while going about regular daily tasks, the injuries become infected, and you start to lose parts of your body. This same thing would affect animals as well as humans. Pain is a required survival tool that serves to ensure an active animal does not engage in self-detrimental activities. Furthermore, the existence of pain guarantees that an animal will not fail to spare any effort to escape a situation that is causing it bodily harm. Any creature that is more than a mindless automaton (i.e. anything that can act on learned behavior rather than pure instinct) needs some sort of feedback system about what is causing it harm. That system is pain. The reason it's so severe is due to the requirement that it must not be possible to consciously overridde (or at least that it be extremely hard to consciously override). There is no logical reason to assume that human pain is any less "pleasant" (or any more "painful," if you will) than that experienced by other animals (especially when you witness how creatures such as dogs and cats act when subjected to torture).