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Ab_normal, Clutch, Dr. Retard and Steven Carr,



What?


Your Bibles are missing Genesis 4:8?









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Ab_Normal

SOMMS, how was I supposed to get a specific chapter and verse out of "It seems like you've misread your Bible," and "You might want to reread your Bible."

From SAB:
and biblegateway.com
and...?

Apikorus

Gen 4:8 is famously corrupt in the MT and a phrase ("let us go to the field") has to be supplied from the LXX. The MT Hebrew reads vayomer qayin el-hevel achiv vayhi bihyotam basadeh vayaqam qayin el hevel achiv vayahargeihu, which means, Qayin said to Hevel his brother, [...] and when they were both in the field Qayin rose up against Hevel his brother and slew him. What Qayin said to Hevel is left out of the MT (but it appears in the LXX, possibly as a late addition).

Attempts to deny haplography by rendering vayomer as "he spoke" (i.e. "Qayin spoke to Hevel his brother...) fall flat because the text clearly says vayomer and not vayedaber.

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Ab_Normal,
Sorry. This was mostly intended for Dr. Retard and Steven Carr. It just seems that they completely missed this verse. Otherwise they wouldn't be posing such absurdities as 'Children choose to get diseases'.




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winstonjen

And this is relevant how?

Dr. Retard

Hey, if they want to run the Original Sin line, they're welcome to. But then they have to stop using "we" and start using "Adam and Eve". After all, the "we" statements are transparently false.

Albert Cipriani

And the Winner is...
Jamie L. for succintly getting to the nub of the issue with this variation on the ends-don't-justify-the-means axiom: I applaud you. Rarely do I see such incisive insights in these parts. Likewise, your conclusion follows like the night that follows the day: Only your last four words are untrue and unsupported by your excellent premise. God definitely wants suffering (He willed His Son to suffer a horrible death), but not for its own sake.

As the ocean is the means whereby fish swim, suffering is the metaphysical means whereby finite beings necessarily actualize their freedom. -- Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

winstonjen

Sorry to say this, but I think that you just destroyed your own argument. By admitting that an omnipotent god does not need to use a means - he/she/it can simply have the desired end result - you are also admitting that an omnipotent god would only cause things that he/she/it wants to occur for its own sake. The intermediate step of requiring a blood sacrifice for forgiveness could be omitted - the deity could simply grant forgiveness.

Clutch

Folks were probably making the charitable assumption that no intellectually respectable person would fall back on the ludicrous doctrine of Original Sin, as a means of justifying the natural suffering of very small children. Of course, there may be isolated cases in which this assumption is unwarranted.

Those babies had it coming! All babies have it coming!

Er... right. Who could have foreseen a rejoinder that subtle and morally enlightened?

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Clutch, (and Dr. Retard)
Actually I think you guys missed it again. Did you even read Genesis 4:8?


Take note:

The 1st consequence of sin...separation from God.
Genesis 3:23
So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

The 2nd consequence of sin...suffering of the innocent.
Genesis 4:8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, "Let's go out to the field." And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.


This has nothing to do with original sin. This has everything to do with sin. Namely that one consequence of sin is that the innocent suffer.




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