MortalWombat

Apparently you have a reading comprehension problem. Not all plants are required for humans to survive. One could live on nothing else but beans and rice (and maybe a multivitamin/mineral supplement). Therefore, by your own criteria, eating any other plant besides beans and rice is wrong, because other plants are not needed.
And by the way, please show me where I said anything about plants having feelings, because apparently you're the only one who sees this.

shamon

The argument is about whether anyone on this entire message boards disagrees with this statement “Needlessly killing animals is wrong”. Words aren’t so ambiguous and subjective that we can’t at least agree on some simple ideas. These ideas are innate and have been with us since our beginning so they really shouldn’t sound that foreign.

Does anyone here think that “Killing something if you don’t have to is right”? ANYONE?

Do YOU think this?

shamon

All plants ARE required. In any given area we have a multitude of plants with which to get sustenance from. In civilization we can eat foods that grow in any area. All of these foods individually are required for some indigenous person’s diet and are therefore available for out generalized diet.

Eating any other plant besides beans and rice is not wrong b/c other plants are equivalent to beans and rice. They provide similar nutritional benefits and calories and also are have similar existences in agriculture. It’s the same with meat, which is why it’s wrong to needlessly kill an animal. Plants ARE required for our diet. All plants are equal morally and all animals are too.

Plants are equal to each other but not equal to animals. Do we really need to talk about this? Everything that you CAN eat isn’t an equal choice morally.

Rational Ag

No, we aren't. There isn't objective morality and although we might agree on a few points, we don't agree on all because morality is subjective.

I think it's morally wrong to kill another human. I think it's morally ok to kill animals. I don't have any trouble differentiating between the two nor do I assign rights to animals.

Would you call killing your neighbor over a land dispute to take his land, his food, his wife, or his property "needlessly killing"? Killing is very commonly used as a form of dispute resolution in many countries. I'm guessing you would call that needless. They consider it moral.

Is dueling "needlessly killing"?

I think it's arrogant (not to mention wrong) of you to assume that everyone subscribes to your objective morality.

I'm not ignoring my morality. I'm not being hypocritical by being a meat eater. I fully understand that I am responsible for killing animals when I eat them, and have no moral problems with it.

You sound like a fundy telling us that we recognize that God exists, but we choose to deny him.

You think you understand me better than I understand myself because you can't comprehend that I have a different morality stance than yourself.

My life is not about utilitarianism, or "what is only needed for survival". I do things because I want to, as long as they don't conflict with my personal morality or the morality of the society in which I live.

I think you need to recognize that Shamon's opinion on what's moral and immoral does not make it so. Your having a problem or not having a problem with something does not justify moral vs. immoral acts.

You may not like something, but that hardly makes it immoral or wrong.

-Rational Ag

brighid

Shamon – come on now, this above statement is quite false. Lean meats are not mostly fat and meats can be trimmed of their fats to lessen the amount of saturated fats in them. Lean meats are complete sources of protein that provide us with necessary amino acids for building healthy bodies and plant sources, unless combined are deficient in amino acids. Lean meats such as tuna and mackerel also provide us with many other wonderful nutrients and those essential fatty acids that are so good for us. Fat, even saturated fat is not bad for the human body but rather in ordinate amounts of it that adversely affect our bodies. Nuts have a lot of fat in them as well, but they are still good for you – unless of course you are allergic! Those omegas can be found in plant sources, as well. Plants CANNNOT intrinsically provide us with ALL of the things we need – remember B-12? Therefore, a naturally occurring vegetarian diet without supplementation or fortification through human manipulation CANNOT provide ALL the necessary nutrients to sustain a healthy mind and body. We are NOT naturally designed to be strict vegetarians or else we would not need B-12 and animal protein sources wouldn’t be such good sources of proteins, amino acids, iron, zinc, AND b vitamins (all non-animal nutrient sources mysteriously MISSING this VITAL nutrient – again that pesky B-12)– all necessary for normal mental and physical function and the absence of which causes serious disease and eventually death!

So, in fact without the recent development of technology allowing the fortification of certain plant nutrients the human animal would not be able to sustain proper muscle, organ or neural function without the incorporation of animal protein in the diet of the human OMNIVORE! If we were herbivores we would be unable to process animal protein and the naturally occurring plant nutrients would be ADEQUATE to sustain all vital functions. Furthermore supplementation is never as good as getting those same nutrients for a whole food source!

Therefore, even with the availability of recent technological advancements the best and most complete source of those aforementioned vital nutrients can best be found in non-human animal meat and for whatever mysterious reason our bodies are designed to best absorb and utilize the greatest amount of those nutrients through animal sources! Again, another mysterious quandary for the human “herbivore.”
Don’t get me wrong, I am not downplaying the important role that whole fruits, vegetables, grains, legumes and nuts plays in the human diet (or the human and ethical treatment of animals)– but no matter how hard you try to make it fit a strictly vegetarian diet IS NOT natural, nor does it best serve the overall health of the human. And yet again – it is the proper incorporation of lean meats (chicken, beef, fish, shellfish) along with all the healthy fruits and veggies, etc. that creates the most healthy diet.

The centurion Okinawan population eats approximately 7 servings of fruits, vegetables and whole grains, along with fish and green tea as part of their diet. Early man’s diet was approximately 50-60% animal meat and yet had a low incidence of cancer and heart disease because the red meat they was fed on grass and not grains! Lots of fresh fruits, vegetables and grains weren’t exactly abundant all year round back then. Meat isn’t the enemy, nor is it immoral to kill something necessary to human life and you have failed to prove that a naturally occurring vegetarian diet is the BEST and healthiest way for humans to go. In fact, I have proven that theory to be false! So, if it is your contention that we should only eat meat if we need to, and in fact we need to because of B-12 then it is in fact NOT immoral to eat meat for without it we would DIE!

Brighid

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]</p>

vixstile

-shamon-
The argument is about whether anyone on this entire message boards disagrees with this statement “Needlessly killing animals is wrong”. Words aren’t so ambiguous and subjective that we can’t at least agree on some simple ideas. These ideas are innate and have been with us since our beginning so they really shouldn’t sound that foreign.

Does anyone here think that “Killing something if you don’t have to is right”? ANYONE?

Do YOU think this?
---------------------------------

I disagree with the statement "Needlessly killing animals is wrong".I also disagree with the statement "anal raping a hobo,and then beating him to death is wrong".

I disagree with these statements because i don't believe in an objective morality. With out an objective morality,actions cant be intrinsically wrong, we merely interpret them as being wrong

brighid

Shamon -

Raw meat – have you heard of sushi, perhaps sashimi and steak tar-tar? Man can indeed eat meat raw. Man can eat red meat raw if it is prepared under the proper conditions. My body can digest it just fine. It is the introduction of certain nasty microbes – specifically those ones found in the intestinal track of animals that makes thing bad if not cooked at proper temperatures. It is safer to cook red meat, specifically hamburger because of the intestinal content contained in it and possible contamination from other sources – but non hamburger meat can be eaten raw.

Thankfully we discovered fire, refrigeration and antibiotics

Human infections with S. Enteritidis usually come from products containing eggs. But during the last 10 years, various Salmonella strains, including S. Enteritidis serotypes, have been associated with contaminated produce.
<a href="http://www.findarticles.com/m3741/7_49/76896802/p1/article.jhtml" target="_blank">http://www.findarticles.com/m3741/7_49/76896802/p1/article.jhtml</a>

"Consumers should handle cantaloupe as they would handle raw meat: they should wash their hands before and after handling the fruit and refrigerate unused cut portions immediately." Cantaloupe has also been implicated in previous outbreaks of [salmonellosis], including one involving 400 cases of Salmonella poona [infection] in 1991.
<a href="http://www.dhfs.state.wi.us/RL_DSL/Publications/cantaloupe.htm" target="_blank">http://www.dhfs.state.wi.us/RL_DSL/Publications/cantaloupe.htm</a>

The microbial pathogens associated with sprouted seeds include Salmonella spp, E. coli O157:H7 and Listeria monocytogenes. Outbreak investigations have indicated that microorganisms found on sprouts most likely originate from the seeds. Most seeds supplied to sprout manufacturers are produced primarily for field planting where the good agricultural practices (GAP) necessary to prevent microbial contamination of seeds intended for sprouting are not followed. As a result, the seeds may be contaminated in the field or during harvesting, storage or transportation. The germination process in sprout production involves keeping seeds warm and moist for four to seven days. In these conditions, low levels of microbial contaminants present on seeds can quickly reach levels high enough to cause illness.
<a href="http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/plaveg/fresh/sprointe.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/plaveg/fresh/sprointe.shtml</a>

Let’s not forget that plants can be poisonous, so just because it grows green doesn’t mean it’s good for you! Fruits and veggies can contaminate you with lots of terrible and life threatening, naturally occurring pathogens if not prepared properly too!

Brighid

Yellow3

Obviously, you have never heard of steak tartare, of sashimi, of sushi, or ceviche. Yes, we can eat meat raw. Nobody dares in this country anymore because of unsanitary conditions due to crowding and poor conditions during the raising of meat and worse condititions during packing. But that is a recent affair.

Aren't equipped to eat meat raw, huh? Someone better go tell the Japanese.

At any rate, the question is less whether we can than whether we should. You have not given a good reason, and that's what everyone here keeps pointing out; just because YOU say it's immoral does not make it so. You can (and have) keep screaming until blue in the face that to kill animals when you can get B12 supplements is wrong. But you haven't shown why to the rest of our satisfaction.

Incidentally, you can say over and over again that it's objectively wrong to eat meat. I can say that it's objectively wrong to eat Pocky all day, too, but that does not make it so.

Because we seem to be disagreeing on the 'uneeded' part. For you, it is only when it's kill the animal or drop dead from starvation or somesuch. For the rest of us, it's probably things like poaching for ivory or something. Vegetarian diets are expensive, and they're also made rather harder when you can't even digest some of the few animal products involved in such a diet (e.g. dairy). Could I live on a vegetarian diet? Sure. Can I afford to do it? Do I have places to go where I can get access to the necessary stuff, without benefit of a car, from where I live? Do I even have fricking TIME to go find all the damn things I need to provide myself with a healthy diet, and then to prepare them properly?

Being a full-time student, the answer is generally 'no'.

Further, I have and will happily kill plenty of things I don't have to, myself, and am not afraid to say so - does the word 'roach infestation' mean anything to you? I could probably survive with the problem, psychological aversion or no (people live under these conditions and worse all the time), but I refuse. Am I thus immoral for drop-kicking the little bastards every time I see them?

- Jen

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Yellow3 ]</p>

Pomp

shamon,

The question is not as simple as you believe it to be for one reason, which has already been pointed out to you: you have presented the moral principle, "It is wrong to kill something if you do not need to," as though it were a self-evident fact, which it is not. Yes, given that we accept this principle, it does follow that eating meat is, generally, immoral, but you've given us no reason to accept this principle. Can you provide some line of argument that establishes your proposed principle as a valid principle that we ought to follow?

As far as this being a subjective/objective issue, it's not even that. There are objective moral systems that do not hold shamon's proposed moral principle and there are possible subjective systems that do.

brighid

Yellow – you could possibly survive a roach infestation, but those nasty, little, bastards carry some diseases that could really make your life miserable! I would not however recommend eating them Perhaps they taste good, but YUCK! But hey, if someone thinks cockroaches are a tasty treat and the have some nutritional value, by all means chomp away. I just think they are one of the most disgusting creatures to evolve (although they have amazing resiliency – damn them!) and the thought of eating one – okay – now I am going to make myself hurl.

Brighid