seebs

I see where you're going. It doesn't work in my case; I don't buy into the general condemnation of all things we might call "magic", because I think that's an error.

Now, the *disbelief* is an interesting one, but, as I said, I'm mostly agnostic on the question. I don't particularly like to accept supernatural explanations, but I don't *reject* them.

It's a good question. In my case, I think the argument from prophecy is painfully bad. I believe the guy was the Messiah because I reinvented most of the morality He preached from scratch, and concluded that he was probably right, and because of subjective personal experience.

I don't really disbelieve in magic; I just don't think it's generally the best explanation.

Magus55

Erm, what Christians do you know that don't think demons are bad? Demons are the angel equivalent to Satan ( essentially, Demons are the fallen angels that followed Satan). Demons go against God, therefore they are bad.

I personally don't believe in ESP. I'm not dismissing it, because I don't think the Bible really discusses it much. I wouldn't really consider ESP sorcery or witchcraft. I do however think its rather hypocritical of an atheist to accept ESP, since it is supernatural. If you can accept that ESP exists, you have to accept that God very probably exists, since both are supernatural.

Flynn McKerrow

Ummm...No.


If you can accept that your God exists, then you have to accept that Unicorns, Leprachauns, fairies, etc. exist, since they are all supernatural.

Biff the unclean

Atheists who accept ESP (I am not one of them) would not consider it to be supernatural. If it existed at all it would merely be misnamed. You can only Perceive through your Senses. If it seemed that you were perceiving without them then it would only be a lack of understanding on your part as to what was happening. Even if there was an extra sense that only a few had evolved. There would be nothing any more supernatural about it than there is to a strong smell.
However after almost 150 years of research being done on the subject there is no sign that ESP exists at all.

sourdough

I'm not an xian,but will throw in my opinion anyway,
not sure about people,but I've heard that dogs can sense when a person is about to have epileptic seizure,
also most animals can sense when an earthquake is about to happen,is that ESP?

Opera Nut

How come Xtians are warned against prophesying, fortunetelling and dream interpretation, when large chunks of the OT are about dreams of Kings and prophecies of prophets??? Huh??? How is that supposed to be ok then but not now??

What some people would call ESP I would call "gut feelings". Once I was attempting to type some holy roller sermons by some black half-assed preacher. I had never met him, didn't know him at all, he was in some other city. But when I was listening to these tapes, and attempted to type them, i got the worst feeling of total dread in my stomach I have ever felt about anybody, by far. I am convinced, even though I never met this guy, that he was evil. Gut feelings are always right, and I believe I was led away from this man.

I gave up typing and gave the tapes back to the woman preacher who gave them to me to type up, because I felt so bad. Then some other woman called me and told me I had no right to charge for my typing skills. That did it. That was the call that sent me over the edge. I tried to slash my wrists and checked myself into the county funny farm. That was two weeks of a complete waste of time.

The Frood Dude

I believe supernatural and ESP phenomenon have explanations that turn out to be "worldy" rather than "other worldly." We often are sensing the world faster than we perceive it. We may not realize that we had a sensation, but we did.

One tests exposed people to visual stimuli that appeared for fractions of a second. People did not recall seeing the stimulus. Later, however, they showed a predisposition to the stimulus. They had been conditioned on a less than conscious level. Some, however, are more atuned to these "pre-cog" experiences. It may come off as a "supernatural" power, but it is just a form of unconscious sensation.

The Frood Dude

Hmmm...

I am not sure that gut feelings are always "right." That places them in a moral category or something. But they are signals and might mean something. Might mean the burrito was too spicy, but it could be that you have picked up on some precog experience as I described above.

It is interesting that you were depressed and believe it was result of this typing experience.

Biff the unclean

I've heard that dogs can sense when a person is about to have epileptic seizure, also most animals can sense when an earthquake is about to happen,is that ESP?
No they just have keener senses than we do. Also many animals have an organ that detects magnetic fields (we do too but it's too small to work)

Opera Nut

Frood, the depression and suicidal ideation were the end stage of a long period of depression and decline which happened after I joined a church and got baptised. I have posted in other threads, my experiences of feeling horrible in church, crying during sermons about how we are all worthless pieces of shit that sin and can never be redeemed, and the constant message that "you're not good enough and you never willi be."

I can't stand to be around Christians, because their death-loving ways disguised as life-affirming waves make me suicidal. I am not saying that I am morally better than other people. I am just saying that I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ORIGINAL SIN. I do not believe that a couple of fruit munching simpletons have anything at all to do with me as a person living now. In the legal system there is a presumption of innocense. God is not just if you are presumed to be a bad person just because you're breathing and walking around. I worked in the legal system for many years and you don't hit somebody with a rap just for existing.