brighid

Jenn,

There is no need to be defensive. I did not say that I did not understand the content of your post and I specifically said that I was not critiquing the content. But it is polite to observe the standard rules of writing when presenting an argument or opinion in a written format. I was not criticizing or grading you, but as a Moderator of this forum simply asking you to pay attention to these things in the future as a courtesy to all others who will have the same difficulty in reading your posts. You are under no obligation to do so observe the rules of punctuation, spacing and paragraph breaks and I only made a suggestion, not a command but it will behoove you to reread and edit your posts before posting in the MF&P forum. I realize that sometimes one may be busy and not have the time do so, but as a general rule it simply courteous and proper to observe these things. Spelling, punctuation and major grammar mistakes detract from your argument and make it difficult for your audience to clearly understand your position.

Brighid

jenn

Brighid,
As a moderator, In my opinion you should be a one that does not take sides.I viewed your comment to be one that wanted to pick.I was not paying much attention while I was in school as in proper grammer, and puncuation.I do though consider myself one that is trying to educate myself in that field as well as in the field of my overall existence.I offended you simply because I did not take time to review my sentencing, puncuation and paragraphing.I will try to better my writings so that some on the thread can better understand.As for me, I can understand whether you puncuate right or not. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

brighid

Jenn,

I have sent you a private message in regards to this matter. I do not want this to continue to distract from the discussion at hand.

Respectfully,
Brighid

Samhain

jenn:

Perfectly fine. As long as you don't get defensive of some of us deconstructing some of your ideas, then I think we should be alright. But then again, sometimes, if you can't take the heat...

Well, considering that existence is essentially meaningless in any kind of "higher" sense. Further, we are discussing morality and the existence of god(s) in this forum. Now, what would you like us to discuss to reach our "capabilities"? What are you talking about here? I'm sorry, I'm at a loss, I have no idea as to what you're referring to. A little help?

Perhaps you'd like to cite specifically which "intellects" and why they sound like "gibberish" to you. If you're competant enough to label some of these arguments as "gibberish" then I assume that you are able to comprehend the abstract meanings and ideas which are trying to be expressed, and that you find them lacking in some way. Now, I find many of the arguments here perfectly valid from the "intellects"; would you like to set forth some of your arguments as to why you believe they are gibberish? Further would you like to set down some topics and rules which these "intellects" should follow when posting so they can avoid being "gibberish"?

Well, yes, I'd also think many of us would agree that Dostoyevsky was one of the greatest writers. How about the Bible, though? That whole book can be summed up in a few chapters and the Ten Commandments, all of the rest is really just "gibberish".

Well, that's fine, perhaps you are, and perhaps you aren't, all I would say is that you may not want to be so quick to label it "gibberish" if you admit that you may not be completely competent in understanding the conversation.

I wasn't aware that "God" wrote the Bible.

Well, nothing has ever been written from "God's" point of view in the Bible. How are we to determine that his view of the world and the actions he takes because of that view of the world are correct or right? "God" may very well be a ruthless tyrant.

Well, actually, many of us would agree that it is perfectly possible for us to say "I don't know" in a reference to many things which people believe. It is a perfectly acceptable and probably the most honest answer to the mysteries of the world. Besides we can always add "yet" to the end of that statement as well. Just because we see the glory of the universe does not mean we have to like it or conjure vague and ridiculous fantasies as to how it all "came about".

What are you talking about, exactly? I really fail to see how "belief" has anything to do in reference to the self. I know that my life is meaningless in the end, I know my existence truly means nothing no matter what I do, yet, I'm fine with this, and am strangely compelled to further myself and my existence in spite of knowing it is all for naught.

Does this really have anything to do with the argument at hand?

brighid

Jenn,

I would like to suggest, in your free time, that you take advantage of the vast information available in the Infidel Library. It will help you gain some familiarity with terms, concepts and philosophies you are not yet familiar with. I know the library here has been an invaluable resource for my understanding of many things I little knowledge of prior to immersing myself in that II library. You may scroll to the top of the page, click on library and select the search function and from there search whatever topic you wish. There are a great number of informative articles on Objective and Subjective Morality that you may find useful.

Brighid

jenn

Samhain,

Brighid was commenting on my puncuation.
I can take someone elses opinion. I do however expect one to know that it is only an opinion.

I was talking of a "higher" sense of you.When one really thinks of what they are made of and looks at the senses and so on then one comes to a higher sense of self.One then starts to see the light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. There is your "higher" existence!

I did not say that I would prefer for SOME(that is what I stated previously)intellects to tone down their vocabulary.I actually love challenging myself to understand the concept that they are talking about.You are putting words in my mouth, and stating that I said something, I simply did not say.

When I referred to the Bible I was trying to convey a sense of authenticity to it. Yes, it was written by man. The Bible states that it was written by man that was inspired by God.So, the Bible is the inspired word of God.Therefore, GOD wrote it.That is what the Christian would tell you.I am telling you that it could be looked at differently.The bible to me is a tool and also history.When you read between the lines you can figure out what existence is all about.Christians believe the bible but they do not know what it is actually saying.They take it so literal.
To understand an intellects writings, I have to expand my vocabulary and really think about what he/she is conversing about.I have to think deeper than I normally do. That was my point before.In order to understand who or what God really is we need to think deeper and beyond our normal horizons of everday thinking.
I did before and will again admit that my vocabulary isn't as wide as yours or most of the others on this forum.In the rules it does not say that in order to write, I have to have a wide vocabulary or correct paragraphing!!
I said previously that you have to believe in yourself.I have noticed before you saying that you do not believe in anything.If you did not believe in yourself, you would surely die.God could be right there in your soul, you don't know.
When I spoke of Bacteria, I was referring to something in which we had to discover with a telescope.Before we discovered it with a telescope, microorganisms were not thought of, because we could not see them with our limited sight.There will always be new discoveries, do not be so close minded to think that just because one cannot prove something yet(or cannot see it), does not mean it does not exist.
<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

jenn

CORRECTION...Discover bacteria with a microscope, not a telescope..hahaha
There I go again, confusing my brothers and sisters of this forum...sorry <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Samhain

jenn:

I have to say, you are taking my criticisms a lot better than I thought you might, I commend you on keeping the conversation civil.

Of course.

"A man who knows others is wise. A man who knows himself is enlightened." - Lao Tzu

I was only making a logical inferrence based upon your previous statements.

The problem as I see it is that wars have been fought because people looked at it "differently".

While it may be a tool for some, I would not say that it is anywhere near an accurate account of any past events.

This would mean that existence or existing is objective or has objective meaning, a point which I will argue against to no end. It gives an interpretation of what existence should be in the minds of men, it is a philosophy, nothing more.

Well, it depends on what denomination you're talking about. I'd think you'd have trouble convincing anyone that you know what it is "actually saying", of course, you may give your opinion, but in comparison to the millions of other interpretations, it will be nothing more than just opinion in the end.

It sure does make it a whole lot easier for us to read and easier for you to express your complete thoughts when you do, though.

Knowledge takes precedence over belief. Make no mistake, I am not a nihilist, but I choose to take an "I don't know" stance to things which I don't know rather than create elaborate explanations that really mean nothing in the end. Sure, through logic and reason I can come to certain conclusions, but these are based upon things I know not what I believe.

Well, yes, eventually we all will die regardless of what we believe. I hold myself to a strict sense of morals and ethics and self-respect, these are not things that require belief, but rather, preference. Death does not concern me.

It is highly improbable, though, so improbable that it is pointless for me to even comprehend the meaning of such a thing.

I am not close minded, but there is no evidence to suggest that anything that could truly be labeled as a "god" exists, compelling or otherwise. Until that evidence presents itself I will continue to be a skeptic and will fight to abolish the false illusions of superiority which many theistic religions will adhere to and will fight against ridiculousness and absurdities from the mouths of fools (in general, I do not specifically mean you, theists or otherwise, but just "fools").

[ June 19, 2002: Message edited by: Samhain ]</p>

excreationist

Samhain:
I think your response missed out on directly responding to Douglas's assertion that "atheism implies that humans are no better than bacteria". This was the original focus of the <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=47&t=000587&p=4" target="_blank">RR&P thread</a>. Basically in these quotes (from the first post here) I think I've shown that statement is incorrect or at least misleading....
jenn:
Well people will probably disagree with you in this forum at some point and to avoid an argument I guess you could make sure you don't disagree back with them...

And through discussions/arguments people might change their minds in light of new evidence. Argumentation involves people's opinions being tested and they have to defend them.

Here's some links that might show otherwise:
<a href="http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0085a.html" target="_blank">The Nature of Hell (part 1)</a> <a href="http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0137a.html" target="_blank">(part 2)</a>
<a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/hel_bibl.htm" target="_blank">N.T. passages about hell</a>

Yeah... apparently the Bible says these things about darkness:
1 Kg.8:12, 2 Chr.6:1
"The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness."
Ps.18:11
"He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies."
Ps.97:2
"Clouds and darkness are round about him."

Yeah... it is a stick... Heaven is the carrot.

Or maybe we won't... I used to believe in God.

If you're saying that God created all of that you should say that in the Creation vs. Evolution forum or the Existence of God forum... or maybe you mean that there must be something more to life that what we see here. Well a believe in the afterlife might make you feel good but that doesn't prove that it is true.

Yeah, you've got to believe in yourself. After I lost my faith in God I became depressed - because I didn't like myself. But later I learned "the greatest love of all" (learning to love yourself).

That's what Quakers (the society of Friends) believe... and they were the ones who helped abolish slavery. (Even though <a href="http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000458" target="_blank">the Bible doesn't speak out against slavery</a>)

You could learn something from Bible studies (perhaps you haven't read the Bible from cover to cover much)... you don't have to believe everything the other people say. (You can silently disagree if you want)

Of course... and I try not to be absolutely certain about anything. But many of my beliefs seem to be fairly certain. (like that the sun will rise tomorrow) Strong Christian faith is different though... they insist they KNOW the *Truth* and if they feel a little bit of doubt they often just pray for more faith... rather than explore those doubts...

excreationist

Samhain:
To be more precise, no evidence - that you are aware of.