Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Spaz · 07-18-2003, 11:49 AM

Numbers 31 has a nice story of Moses' army killing men, women, and children, and keeping the virgin women for themselves, etc.

Calzaer · 07-18-2003, 11:51 AM

2 Kings 2:24. 42 children call Elija "baldhead". Elija curses them in the name of the LORD, and two bears come out of the forest and devour all 42 kids.

Hawkingfan · 07-18-2003, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Normal
From what I can tell, reasonable scholars take Genesis, the story of Adam and Eve, the Exodus, and the world flood as myths. If these are considered myth, why is there so much effort put in to disprove the rest of the Bible? Why not just take the rest as a story and where history lines up with the Bible accept it as coincidence?

One of the most common things said against the Bible, but if you don't believe in Genesis why take those as being literal as well?

I think this would be committing some sort of fallacy. Like perhaps:

Fallacies of composition
The Fallacy of Composition is to conclude that a property shared by a number of individual items, is also shared by a collection of those items; or that a property of the parts of an object, must also be a property of the whole thing.

Or maybe:
Converse accident / Hasty generalization
This fallacy is the reverse of the Fallacy of Accident. It occurs when you form a general rule by examining only a few specific cases which aren't representative of all possible cases.

Secular Pinoy · 07-18-2003, 04:00 PM

I find the various instances of sacrifices and offerings in the Torah to be atrocious. Read Numbers chapter 19 and most of Leviticus for examples of various animal sacrifices.

Doctor X · 07-18-2003, 04:04 PM

Not to mention human sacrifices.

--J.D.

Secular Pinoy · 07-18-2003, 04:07 PM

I may have missed those, or I find the verses vague or ambiguous to consider it as real human sacrifices. Can you cite the verses so as to refresh my memory? Thanks.

Ab_Normal · 07-18-2003, 04:35 PM

SAB
from the annotation:

Quote:

When "the spirit of the Lord" comes upon Jephthah, he makes a deal with God: If God will help him kill the Ammonites, then he (Jephthah) will offer to God as a burnt offering whatever comes out of his house to greet him. God keeps his end of the deal by providing Jephthah with "a very great slaughter." But when Jephthah returns, his nameless daughter comes out to greet him (who'd he expect, his wife?). Well, a deal's a deal, so he delivers her to God as a burnt offering -- after letting her spend a couple of months going up and down on the mountains bewailing her virginity.

Doctor X · 07-18-2003, 04:39 PM

Secular Pilory:

WHAT?!!! YOU WANT EVIDENCE?!!!

If my gospel is veiled it is veiled only to YOU who is perishing!!!

Repent!

You know . . . if you just knew what you were writing about . . . you would agree with me. . . .

Right, seriously, too much caffeine . . . on one of these threads, I posted a nice summary of the "ban" or heren--which I may have just mispelled--from a article in a recent JBL. I need to find it, or, when I "get out of the office" I will re-post it here.

--J. "Those with Eyes, Hear!" D.

Secular Pinoy · 07-18-2003, 04:47 PM

Yes, I remember that story Ab, thanks. But I was actually thinking of institutionalized human sacrifices. Like in the OT there are several chapters detailing the steps on how to sacrifice goats, birds, sheep, bullocks, heifers and such.

Doctor X · 07-18-2003, 05:01 PM

Secular Pilory:

Here it is:

Quote:

It is now widely recognized that human sacrifice was practiced in ancient Israel much later than scholars of an earlier generation had assumed. Abraham is not condemned but praised for his willingness to offer up his son, even though he is not required to go through with it. Exodus 22:28-29 appears to require the sacrifice of the firstborn and does not provide for substitution in the manner of the parallel text in Exod 34:19-20. The Judean kings Ahaz (2 Kgs 16:3) and Manasseh (2 Kgs 21:6) are accused of child sacrifice. Their practice cannot be dismissed as due to foreign influence, but had venerable precedents in the cult of YHWH. Nonetheless, by the time of the Deuteronomists this practice had been denounced by prophets (Mic 6:6-8; Jer 19:4-6), and Deuteronomy explicity condemns it as an abhorrent Canaanite custom (Deut 12:31; 18:10). Yet the same Deuteronomy has no qualms about the practice of the ban [". . . the practice whereby the defeated enemy was devoted to destruction."--Ed.], and in fact most of the passages dealing with herem [Ban.--Ed.] are found in the Deuteronomistic corpus.

References:

Collins JC, "The Zeal of Phineas: the Bible and the Legitimation of Violence," JBL 122, 2003, 3-21.

who quotes:

Heider GC. The Cult of Molek: A Reassessment. JSOT Press, Sheffield: 1985.

Day J. Molech: A God of Human Sacrifice in the Old Testament. University of Cambridge Oriental Publications 41; Cambridge University Press, Cambridge: 1989.

Levenson JD. The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son: The Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christianity. Yale University Press, New Haven: 1993.

Stern PD. The Biblical Herem: A Window on Israel's Religious Experience. BJS on Israel's Religious Experience[/i]. BJS 211; Scholars Press, Atlanta: 1991.

Niditch S. War in the Hebrew Bible: A Study in the Ethics of Violence. Oxford University Press, New York: 1993.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-18-2003, 11:49 AM	#11
Spaz Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: 6th Circle of Hell Posts: 1,093	Numbers 31 has a nice story of Moses' army killing men, women, and children, and keeping the virgin women for themselves, etc.

07-18-2003, 11:51 AM	#12
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	2 Kings 2:24. 42 children call Elija "baldhead". Elija curses them in the name of the LORD, and two bears come out of the forest and devour all 42 kids.

07-18-2003, 04:00 PM	#14
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	I find the various instances of sacrifices and offerings in the Torah to be atrocious. Read Numbers chapter 19 and most of Leviticus for examples of various animal sacrifices.

07-18-2003, 04:04 PM	#15
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Not to mention human sacrifices. --J.D.

07-18-2003, 04:07 PM	#16
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	I may have missed those, or I find the verses vague or ambiguous to consider it as real human sacrifices. Can you cite the verses so as to refresh my memory? Thanks.

07-18-2003, 04:39 PM	#18
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Secular Pilory: WHAT?!!! YOU WANT EVIDENCE?!!! If my gospel is veiled it is veiled only to YOU who is perishing!!! Repent! You know . . . if you just knew what you were writing about . . . you would agree with me. . . . Right, seriously, too much caffeine . . . on one of these threads, I posted a nice summary of the "ban" or heren--which I may have just mispelled--from a article in a recent JBL. I need to find it, or, when I "get out of the office" I will re-post it here. --J. "Those with Eyes, Hear!" D.

07-18-2003, 04:47 PM	#19
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	Yes, I remember that story Ab, thanks. But I was actually thinking of institutionalized human sacrifices. Like in the OT there are several chapters detailing the steps on how to sacrifice goats, birds, sheep, bullocks, heifers and such.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.