GakuseiDon

This story gets more wooly the more it gets repeated.

(1) The youths do more than call Elijah "baldhead". They say "Go up, baldhead!" which, if referring to Elisha being taken up by God, means "go to Heaven". At worst case, they are saying "die"; at best, it is threatening.

(2) "Devour all 42 kids"? The word used in the Bible means "to tear, to split". It is used in 3 other places in the Bible, and doesn't mean "devour" or even "kill" in any of them. In other words, as the Bible doesn't use the word "kill", we can't assume the bears killed them, much less "devoured" them.

(3) The Bible doesn't say there were 42 kids, just that the bears mauled 42 kids. So there were more than 42. There is no mention of adults, so it's not like it's a kindergarten class. If you were out for a walk, and met a group of 50 or so youths who started threatening you, I think there would be cause for concern.

(4) How could even 2 bears maul 42 kids? Either the kids were very slow, or the bears were very quick. (IMHO, it is even more likely that the kids started tormenting the bears. This would be consistent with their behaviour towards Elijah). Anyway, it suggests that the maulings weren't necessarily serious. I suggest it may have depended on the kids themselves.

(Ed. I added (4) after Doctor X posted, but before I saw his post).

Doctor X

. . . and bears tend to be very gentle when they maul. . . .

--J.D.

Regarding Above

First, it is "Elisha," not "Elija."

Methinks the 47 this is an example of hyperbole. I am unfamiliar with text--one OT scholar considers the bears "eat" the children--so I cannot comment on how it should be translated . . . though "maul" versus . . . "eat" is rather comparable in that you have a rather large number of brats dispatched.

Of course, one must consider that these are bears invigorated by heavenly power . . . so . . . nothing is impossible.

These could also be children who rode the "Short-Wagon" to school. . . .

Anyways, while it is probably hyperbole, it indicates the intent of the author to allow wholesale maiming, if not consumption, of children for an insult. The text does not mention an attempt at assault on the part of the children.

[Edited to repond to an edit.--Ed.]

Secular Pinoy

I've heard of this one before, but it was never explained how it could refer to a threat, or a jeer for someone to die and go to heaven. In the NRSV it is rendered as "Go away, baldhead," while the NIV "Go on up, you baldhead." It sounds more like giving an excuse to kill the youths by making them threaten Elisha.

mark9950

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven

No ones ascended into heaven,jesus said so.

GakuseiDon

Really? So, Duke Nukem's "Let God sort them out!" is just a simple request for God to do some sorting. Arnie's "Hasta la vista, baby!" just means "see you later".

How many youths were killed? And wouldn't you feel threatened if a group of 42+ kids came up to you and started jeering you? What do you think they were going to do, btw?

Doctor X

Selling GirlScout cookies. . . .

Actually, since the text does not indicate how many children insulted him, perhaps only two or three did, and the remaining 45 children--who were busy playing jacks, or skipping rope, or formenting the World-Wide Communist Conspiracy [Tm.--Ed.]--suffered unjustly!!

--J.D.

Jackalope

You want atrocities? Read all of Judges. Chapter 19 is bad enough, but 20 and 21 are appalling.

A good book to pick up is The Harlot by the Side of the Road, Forbidden Stories of the Bible, by Jonathan Kirsch.

Secular Pinoy

My, have I struck a nerve? Anyway, I don't see how your analogy proves your point. Please show me how "Go up, you baldhead" refers specifically to a threat of killing someone. No bible version that I know translates it to mean what you say it mean, and several bible versions (NRSV, CEV and MSG, for instance) translate it as being jeering without threatening death.I would be annoyed. But I see that you've shifted what you just said. You claim that "go up, you baldhead" meant specifically to threaten a bald person with death (Remember typing "At worst case, they are saying "die"; at best, it is threatening"?). Now you are focusing on the situation, and not what they said, which is what I am questioning. Please stay on topic.

Did they, in fact, mean by "go up, you baldhead" to be "go meet your maker in heaven, baldy?" You have not shown it to be the case.

Doctor X

I gather one would have to review what "go up baldy/baldhead" means in other texts.

Let us take its worst case scenario . . . that the kids told him to "die."

'kay. . . .

This justifies the eating/mauling/unpleasant clawing/bending/folding/spindling/mutilating of 47 children . . . even particularly uncute children?

Again, I am not very familiar with the textual criticism of this section of Kings--does verse 23 follow the section of 19-22/is something added or subtracted . . . blah . . . blah . . .--however, it seems a quick counterpoint to the men of the city treating him well and he "blessing" them in a sense by using the power of YHWH to purify the water.

A couple of kids treat him badly. . . .

Lesson we learn, today, is do not piss off old Jewish men. . . .

In the land of mythmaking--where people get squished/blessed and hyperbole abound--this is "acceptable."

It is not in the real world.

--J.D>

Asha'man

“Sticks and stone may break my bones, but words will never harm me”

Elisha must be strangely vulnerable to insults, the rest of the human race seems to be immune. Or was he actually in no real danger of death?

A fundamental principle of morality, as well as our law, is that lethal force may only be used to defend your life. You can’t kill (or attack using a gun) unless your life (or that of your immediate family) is clearly in danger. Was Elisha being yelled at or assaulted? It’s a pretty damn important distinction. Or does morality not apply to prophets?

I think the mere fact that the bears showed up and attacked, by order of the holy spirit, is enough. A bear attack is a lethal thing, just like a gunshot wound. You can survive either one, but the odds of death are high. Especially in a time when God hasn’t told anyone about infection and washing of wounds, so any serious injury was probably fatal. (Just why did God forget to inform humans about infection, anyways, did he think gangrene was somehow good for us? After all, he warned us about eating pork, and shellfish, which seem to be much less dangerous.)

Which is it, kids or youths? The translations I have read have never implied a gang of dangerous teenagers. Reading the plain meaning of the text, it looks like a bunch of unruly children, the type that deserve a spanking, not stoning. And again, you are reading more into the text than is present. It doesn’t say more than 42, so you are clearly making an assumption. Personally, I’d expect God-powered justice to be effective and efficient, so no kid would have escaped. That means there were exactly 42 kids.

Bears are fast in short sprints, very fast. They can easily run down a person on foot, even one on a mountain bike (trust me on that last one!). And if you fill the bears with the holy spirit of vengeance, I assume they can run even faster.


You seem awfully anxious to alter the meaning of the text here, instead of reading it like it appears. It sure seems that the author did a crappy job of telling the story, if it happened like you think it did. Personally, I’m a much better writer than God, I could tell a story in such a way that nobody ever questions the event, the meaning would be clear and the moral of the story unquestioned. How come I’m such a better writer than God?