christ-on-a-stick

Christian, Interesting. It seems easy to "interpret" it that way in hindsight, but I am curious: do you think that the Israelites saw it this way, or did God present it to them in a literal way? From my readings of the Bible I don't see much evidence that they considered these things "symbolic"; a reading of Leviticus 15 (15:30 to be exact) clearly states that the menstruating woman's "uncleanness" is a *sin* that must be atoned for.

So, why would God create a woman's body to do something naturally (menstruate) and then tell them that it causes them to be "unclean" and as such it is a sin?

spurly

Lauri,

Not everything that made one unclean was a sin. For instance, touching a dead person was not a sin - but it made one unclean. Why? My guess is that death was the result of sin coming into the world - and was never supposed to exist. Thus touching one who had died was touching the result of the original curse on mankind.

Also, a nocturnal emmission made one unclean. This was not a sin, but it simply made one unclean until he was able to do what was necessary to become clean again.

I hope that helps.

Kevin

christ-on-a-stick

Hi Kevin,

I understand what you are saying, but in the Leviticus passage I referenced (chapter 15, specifically verse 30), it is stated that a woman's menstrual "uncleanness" *is* a sin. That's the basis of my question for Christian.

(BTW I think you meant "mankind". For a sec there I was wondering what a "manking" ~ rhyming with "spanking" ~ was!!! hehe)

Infidelettante

Spurly, I practice magic and a good many Christians would say I'm of the Devil. But Sweet Jesus you have the most magical religion there is. Original sin and bodies? Clean and unclean? This is voodoo man. Nocturnals and just what DO you do to *become clean again*? I would really like to know. I'm sure there's a verse somewhere you can give me. And while you're at it can you give me a verse that tells you how to have one? I'm of the age that it's been awhile.

christ-on-a-stick

...*bumpity-bump* for Christian - to reiterate my question (see my post 3 or so up) - regarding the laws applying to menstruating women being symbolism vs. sin.

Thanks!

Lauri

Christian

Lauri,

Lev 15:30 is not about menstruation (see the context starting at verse 25). It refers to discharge beyond and other than menstruation. No sin offerings or burnt offerings were required for a normal monthly cycle. In the first half of Lev 15 the same rules are laid down (requiring the same sacrifices) for men who have an illness causing a discharge. This law isn't even gender specific.

In other words, your point is moot. It is sick people who have discharges (men and women) who are required to give a sin offering when they are healed. Lev 15:30 is about the body malfunctioning, not about the body functioning as God designed it to.

The reason for the Lev 15 laws is spelled out in verse 31: "You must keep the Israelites separate from things that make them unclean, so they will not die in their uncleanness for defiling my dwelling place, which is among them."

God was using symbolic language in that historical context to teach the Israelites a specific point. The point was reverence for the God, specifically by treating His dwelling place among them as holy.

The Israelites probably did not realize the Mosaic Laws were primarily symbols of realities to come. That was something revealed later on in redemptive history. They DID realize that the purpose of the Lev 15 laws (menstruation / emission / discharge) were to treat God's dwelling place as something holy. Moses spelled that much out for them.

Sin offerings are described in Lev 4 and 5. Touching any type of human uncleanness made you "guilty" and required a sin offering (Lev 5:3). The Lev 15 laws about women (and men) with unnatural discharges is just a specific application of Lev 5:3. So we can broaden your question to “why was touching any human uncleanness considered sin?”

The purpose of any Old Testament animal sacrifice is described in Hebrews.

"HEB 10:8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

The whole point of the animal sacrifice is to be a symbol of the sacrifice of Christ, by which "we" are made holy. In this light it makes sense that God would require an animal sacrifice for touching human uncleanness:

Those being "made holy" are also being "made perfect forever" by the sacrifice of Christ (Heb 10:14). A malfunctioning body made well is suggestive of our entire being which is made perfect. Therefore the sin offering (tied to the physical healing) suggests the offering of Christ's body (tied to the entire person being made holy.) The symbolism fits.

Human uncleaness being symbolic of sin (and therefore requiring a symbolic animal sacrifice) made God's point about holiness in a way the Israelites could understand. And the symbolism fit the coming reality. That's why.

Respectfully,

Christian

christ-on-a-stick

Hi Christian,

Why on earth would being ill be a "sin"? Do you actually believe that illness is -or WAS ever- caused by sin, or somehow getting sick (not something people can usually control) is sinful? On another note, you used the word "healed" - are you implying that God "heals" illness or using the word loosely? If the former, I would ask why God doesn't just prevent illness to begin with. Side topic though I realize... Who else, exactly, is responsible for "designing" the viruses, bacterias, etc. that cause illness? One of the claims of Xianity (and please correct me if you do not subscribe to it) is the idea of complex systems requiring a designer (that they can't just happen). So if the various illnesses that befall humans (and the response of the body to them in order to become well again) are not *designed* by God, then by who or what? So they will not die.... do you take this to mean that God would "smite them" for "defiling" the holy place by being ill? What about the terminally or chronically ill/deformed/etc.? Were they permanently unclean and therefore permanently "in sin" and unfit for redemption?

More on the rest later, otherwise it can get pretty long...

Thanks!

Christian

Lauri,

Sickness and disease are a result of the Fall. They are not part of the way God designed the body to function ... they are a corruption of that design. The glorified bodies that Christians will be given in the future will not know disease or illness. It will be an incorruptible body, as opposed to this present corruptible body.

To be clear, I'm not saying that we become ill as a result of specific sins we have committed. That is possible, but probably not common. I'm saying that this cursed world we live in is a result of the Fall, and part of this cursed world is sickness and disease.

Illnesses are a corruption of the good things God designed. He was in control of all the agents and factors in their creation - it occurred by His express permission, but He was not the active agent in their creation.

In other words, God "designed" sickness in an ultimate sense. But just this side of the ultimate sense sickness is a corruption of the good things God created. So the answer depends on what level you are talking about.

Why didn't God prevent illness to begin with? He did, but then permitted Adam and Eve to mess that up. From the eternal perspective it was wiser to design a system of fall and then redemption than it was to design a system of perfection without fall. I don't really grasp all of the reasons for that (or even most of them), but I see hints and I trust Him on the matter.

The pattern of this world from past history to future is:

1 - Good things are created.
2 - Those good things get corrupted.
3 - Those good things are redeemed by Christ's death to become even better things than they were at first.

The pattern of a Christian life is:

1 - Created in the image of God.
2 - Rebels against God. His image is still there but tarnished.
3 - Becomes a New Creation by Christ's death (body gets transformed into a new body a little later.) End result is even better than the beginning.

The history of the world is reflected in the life of a Christian, and both hinge on the central event in redemptive history - the death and resurrection of Christ.

Who corrupted the human body in this manner? Possibly Satan played a hand, but I don’t know. I think it was also simply the natural processes at work in this cursed world. Such as genetics (Adam and Eve would have had perfect DNA, and mutations accumulate over time), natural selection, the stupidity of humans in dealing with their environment, etc.

And yes, the whole thing happened down to the last detail at the expressed permission of God and in accordance with His ultimate plan.

Interesting tangent from your original question.

Yes. If they disobeyed His laws for avoiding the tabernacle (the dwelling place of God among the Israelites) while they were ceremonially "unclean," God would have literally killed them to make His point. They were laws, not suggestions, for the ancient Israelites. The symbology was also there for the Israelites who looked for it. But these symbols were enforced as laws.

They were not allowed to serve as priests or to come near the tabernacle ever under the Mosaic Laws. For the same reason ... the point was that God is holy and you must approach Him with absolute reverence.

Permanently unclean, yes, but not unfit for redemption. The sacrifices made for the entire nation on the day of atonement could still provide (ceremonial) atonement for their sins.

They were only forbidden from serving as priests and from approaching that really holy tent where God dwelled in their midst. They were not forbidden from being part of the chosen people of God.

Respectfully,

Christian

Arikay

A very interesting read.

Im confused though. If god didnt mean for illness to exist in the world, how come he designed our body specifically to fight off illnesses?

Christian

Arikay,

Just speculating, but a couple of solutions suggest themselves.

- Perhaps our immune system serves a valid function apart from fighting off "sickness" and "disease." It's actually a tiny fraction of the species of bacteria that are harmful to the human body. And some bacteria can be quite helpful when held to their appropriate number and place in the human body.

- God designed our bodies anticipating the Fall. The Fall was no suprise to Him, and He gave us bodies that could survive for the most part in a cursed world.

- Our bodies may have changed in some way at the Fall. I'm not convinced of this, though. The human "death" that resulted from the Fall may have been entirely spiritual. Scripture allows for that interpretation and it makes more sense to me. I list this possibility here because a fair number of my Christian friends would probably point to it as a reason.

Respectfully,

Christian