Amie

well I am sorry you find my belief offensive.
If everyone is perfect then whats the problem?
ok well I disagree but I respect your opinion...
again though racist?

Infinity Lover

I wouldn't go as far as calling myself perfect, there's no such thing as perfection. But on the same hand I wouldn't say I'm lacking in some way...

...Hi, I'm not entirely Infinity Lover, who are you not quite?

We are however subject to limitations, and our capacity to not knowingly and willingly do anything objectable, is therefore limited also. Sinner, is merely a term to describe that characteristic.

Though I don't agree with the notion that we ought to be punished for that, or deemed unworthy, or in need of salvation, the term sinner doesn't really constitute as a blatant false assumption t.m.h.o.

Tdekeyser, could it be you take offense to the term sinner, because it's religiously charged, and thus something you don't wish to be associated with?


Oh... and I don't get the rascist bit either.

ybnormal

I am NOT a sinner. That is absolutely OFFENSIVE.

Huh? Why?

Well, I'm a member of a large, organized social group, which used to help our poorer members all the time.

Years ago, The Committee began to see a pattern developing, as they were going less appreciated by both the rich member givers and the poor member receivers of our group's niceness.

With each passing year, the poor members whined for more and more freebies while the rich members whined to give less and less.

Soon, every time a member disappointed us in some way, our leadership would edit our books, and add those members to our growing list of what our leaders, quite arbitrarily, decided to call, "assholes."

Over the years, we all recognized that everyone, even non-members, are assholes to someone at some time in their lives.

We now realize that everyone on earth fits that same pattern, and that's why we all go around calling each other, and everyone else, assholes.

And you know, just like you are asking, our group can't figure out why some people find it OFFENSIVE when we care enough to be honest enough to call everyone on earth an asshole.

Go figger!

seebs

My thinking is this: I know that my imperfections often separate me from those I love, or harm people. I have been told that there is One who is not flawed like this, and that He will help me beat these problems, and, once I'm no longer warring with animal instincts, that He'll perfect me in some way. This sounds like a good deal.

tdekeyser

Ok, let's drop the racist thing. I can bring that point up in another thread.

Maybe it is ME who does not get it, but I want to.

Let's try another aproach:

Let's have two word groups and you tell me which one 'sinner' falls into...

1) Wonderful, beautiful, perfect, impressive, exceptional, awesome, excellent, inspiring, notable, respectful.

2) Tarnished, imperfect, grey, needs improvement, broken, lost, dirty, needs help, offensive, lacking, damaged, unsatisfactory, flawed, limited, disrespectful.

Now someone tell me which group would sinner would fall into. Why in the world would anyone want to choose this description for themselves when they could believe group #1 and learn what self-love and love for everyone else is really about. I really feel very sad for ANY child to have to learn such lies that #2 tells.

seebs

I would say it falls into group #2; on the other hand, I'm not sure that's the correct set of alternatives. Let's try three groups:

1. excellent, perfect, without compare, lacking nothing, pure

2. imperfect, needs help, good effort, needs improvement

3. awful, unlovable, stupid, worthless

I think "sinner" is in group 2; I believe all people should be in group 2, because if you're in group 1, why are you even *here*?

HelenM

What if someone else doesn't agree you are beautiful? Is their opinion less valid than yours? Would it offend you if they were honest? Would you rather have them lie and say "you're beautiful" even when they believe they are lying? Would you like to live in a world where people lie to you rather than offend you?

Do you lie to other people rather than offend them? Or do you offend them because honesty is more important to you than whether they are offended?

Do you think you are more or less easily offended than other people - if you have an opinion on that?

If someone offends you is that wrong of them? Do you consider everyone else to be perfect, just as you are?

Does being perfect mean that you have nothing about yourself you are trying to change or improve?

Feel free to answer none or some or all of these - I won't be offended by your choice...

Helen

tdekeyser

Ahhhh.... we are getting somewhere.

No, I have to disagree, we are in group #1. Most definitely my friend....

That is where our world view splits. We are the TOP species on the 3rd planet from this sun. We are one, and I say ONE of the best creations that 'nature' has created. Our brains are at the heart of this mastery, but probably only millionths of impressive as evolution can produce.

We have every reason to feel good about our existance. We can/will improve ourselves, not by belittlement but rather self-esteem.

We know that we have imperfections, but the focus HAS to be on what is positive about ourselves, not the negative things.

(as a matter of fact, we are discovering through science that the 'negative' things actually were very NEEDED things to ensure our survival. "Perfect!")

seebs

If we can improve ourselves, we're still in group 2. Group 1 is only for things that cannot possibly improve.

Anyway, now at least we know where our worldview splits. Just treat "sinner" as "you could improve, theoretically", and you'll be much happier, and much closer to the correct meaning.

tdekeyser

Well, since there is no boundries for perfection, it is not a goal but a path that never ends.

I feel that has some good things about it, but I never got a 'good fiieling' from the name "sinner". I respond (hence improve) to POSITIVE things and the rest of the planet is the same way.