Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hezekiah jones · 03-23-2002, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by excreationist:
But the constitution says that all men are created equal.

Sorry to quibble, but it's the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution, that makes that claim.

In fact prior to the Fourteenth Amendment, slaves were counted as three-fifths of a person. (See Article I Section 2.) The northern states felt that counting slaves as entire persons would give the slave states too much representation in the House, which, unlike the Senate, is based on a state's population.

If anything in the Constitution smacks of Old Testament-style thinking, it's counting slaves as less than whole persons. But as you can see from the text of the Constitution, it consists primarily of rules on how to structure the mechanics of government. It has nothing whatsoever to do with moral laws handed down by the god that led the Hebrews out of Egypt.

Harumi · 03-23-2002, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Smith:


Small correction. James Madison was definitely a Presbyterian, and one with puritanical leanings. Nevertheless, he was the single most active of the framers of the constitution on the issue of disestablishment. The words of the 1st Amendment might have carried even stronger separation language had Madison had his way.

Well, I'm friends to two people who are descendents of James Madison's family. Duff descended from Madison's wife's family, Ross came directly down from the Madison family. Ross is a sixth day creationist, almost a fundalmentalist, but not quite there. Duff is a liberal freethinker.

Maybe he's both.

Harumi

Toto · 03-23-2002, 11:18 AM

I have been forwarded this by Buffman, who would like to compliment excreationist for his post, and add some more references.

Quote:

I wished to compliment him for a dandy post and provide the following reference for potential amplification:

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/051734582X/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">"Asimov's Guide to THE BIBLE"</a> by Isaac Asimov (Two Volumes in One), Avenel Books, NY, 1981----pgs. 17-21, 'God to Man'

>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;

Adding some addition info to [Toto's] post to Harumi, I would extract the following from the URL you gave him for special emphasis about Madison's religious convictions concerning Christianity:

Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute threepence only of his property for the support of any one establishment may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?
-- James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, addressed to the Virginia General Assemby, June 20, 1785

>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;

I have found a considerable amount of information concerning Madison's religious views in <a href="http://www.secweb.org/bookstore/bookdetail.asp?BookID=157" target="_blank">"The GODLESS Constitution"</a> by Isaac Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore, W.W. Norton & Company, NY/London, 1996-97.(Unfortunately, I have had reason to question the accuracy of some of the references in their book.) --- More importantly, there were a goodly number of Christians among those who were thrilled by the "no religious test" clause in Article 6, paragraph 3 of the basic Constitution. People like Tenche Coxe (Penn.), James Iredell (N.C.), John Leland (Vir.), Samuel Spencer (N.C.); Samuel Langdon (N.H.). Daniel Shute (Mass.), Isaac Backus (Mass.)....the list of luminary names is very long. Young Harumi might ask his teacher what she thinks these men's views were about Christianity and the Constitution.---As President, Madison vetoed an 1811 bill passed by Congress that simply gave a charter to an Episcopal church within the District of Columbia. (ibid at pg 104) [The reason presented should be framed and hung around GWB's neck.] That same year, he vetoed legislation that would give land to a Baptist church in the Mississippi Territory. He opposed including clergymen in the census under the Trade and Professions category. He opposed, UNSUCCESSFULLY, appointing chaplains to Congress, arguing that their payment from the national treasury violated the First Amendment. He DID, during the War of 1812, allow for a national fast day "with religious solemnity as a day of public humiliation and prayer" in support of the war. The speech by Timothy Dwight, at the Yale College Chapel had applied great pressure on Madison and the Constitution. However, it is Mr. Dwight's negative words which truly provide a better insight into, and support for, the Constitution for so many Americans. I think you might agree.

" The nation has offended Providence. We formed our Constitution without any acknowledgement of God; without any recognition of His mercies to us, as a people, of His government, or even of His existence. The [Constitutional] Convention, by which it was formed, never asked even once, His direction, or His blessings, upon their labors. Thus we commenced our national existence under the present system, without God."

IMHO, that pretty well summarizes what we have been attempting to teach people about the 'No Christian Nation' foundation of our federal republic.

Here is a pro Timothy Dwight biography:

<a href="http://dylee.keel.econ.ship.edu/ubf/leaders/dwight.htm" target="_blank">http://dylee.keel.econ.ship.edu/ubf/leaders/dwight.htm</a>

This is a truly fascinating read. I highly recommend it to you.

A significant extract ?...."Pastoring the church, Teaching at an academy he established, and speaking and writing against Deism." --- Just one last passing thought. Where did Bush clan get their education/conditioning?

[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]

Oresta · 03-23-2002, 01:48 PM

Harumi,
You might consider doing a thesis paper on this issue. All the sources you need have been cited here.

Hi, Glen!

excreationist · 03-23-2002, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hezekiahjones:
Sorry to quibble, but it's the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution, that makes that claim.

In fact prior to the Fourteenth Amendment, slaves were counted as three-fifths of a person. (See Article I Section 2.)...

Ok... well I was just guessing that it came from the Constitution... that would be the document that talks about the creator then too.
But anyway, slaves aren't mentioned at all in the 10 commandments - only servants. And in the NIV there is a big difference. Servants are temporarily owned Hebrews who must be well-treated.

03-24-2002, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ex-preacher:
I have seen him referred to as both Episcopalian and Deist, but nowhere named as a "Presbyterian with puritanical leanings." Source please!

and

Quote:

Originally posted by Doug:
ex-preacher,
As a doctoral candidate you should know better than to expect documentation for a definitive statement.

First: I'm sorry I did some hit & run posting (I am not sure, I was probably 'filled with the spirits' when I made the original post. I then forgot I had posted and neglected to follow up.

Second: I am sorry, I said that Madison was Presbyterian when in actually he was Episcopalian. His Princeton education under a Presbyterian school master was the source of my confusion on that point.

Third: My post was informed by my readings of Ralph Ketcham's biography of Madison. Here are a few snippets from it, and some references to Ketcham's source material...

Quote:

Ketcham, p52.
Madison replied promptly (to "My dear Billey") approving Bradford's intended course of study, but, assuming a grave air, he advised his friend to "season [your studies] with a little divinity now and then" and warned him that "a watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest while we are building ideal monuments of Renown and Bliss here we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven."

Ketcham references a letter 'To Bradford, November 9,1772, MP, I 72-3'
I assume MP refers to Madison Papers, but I cannot find what collection it refers to in the bibliography. The bibliography does cite collections of 'JM' papers, and mentions the Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia as owning the Madison family papers.

Quote:

Ketcham, pp. 56-57
Madison's reticence after this time on religious questions has encouraged claims both that he was seduced from a youthful piety by skeptical politicians such as Paine and Jefferson and that he ceased to write or speak of it. There is no evidence that he was ever more than conventionally religious as a youth or as a college student. His authorship of the blasphemous Whig doggerel confounds any supposition of particular devoutness. On the other hand, at Princeton his attention to religion did increase, intellectually at least, and perhaps even spiritually if he had been affected by the pervasive religious awakenings there in 1770 and 1772. His post-graduate study o fHebrew and theology, some surviving scholarly notes he took on scriptural commentaries in about 1772, a surviving prayer book he used in conducting family devotions, and the tone of his letters to Bradford all suggest a deep religious concern. The letter quoted from above, however, probably marks the shift of his attention to public affairs, a change probably spurred by his improved health and the passing of adolescent introspections. Madison seems simply to have dropped his interest in doctrinal questions, troubling, wo far as we know, neither to reject nor to reaffirm his religious tenets thereafter. Furthermore, he never attacked relgion or religous men and he always saw "good religion" as a useful support for republican government.

Ketcham's reference for this is
'"Scripture Notes," MP, I, 51-9; prayer book in University of Virginia Library collection of Madison pamphlets.'

I am not doing any post-doctoral work myself, so I will leave off with the quotes from Ketcham's book, but will offer that I was left with the general feeling that Madison was a more or less conventionally religious person who felt the need for piety and religious morality.

I must also apologize for using the term 'definitely'... as I said before, I was probably three sheets to the wind when I made my post. I am, by the way, sober now.

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Jerry Smith ]

ex-preacher · 03-24-2002, 02:50 PM

Thanks, Jerry, for the follow-up information. It is frustrating that so many of the key founders said so little about their own views on religion. It makes me wonder if they were so secretly unorthodox that they feared a political cost if they spoke their views publicly. Or maybe they were just being discreet and private about their views. Or maybe they didn't dwell that much on religious ideas. At any rate, they left lots for us to discuss and wonder about.

The great thing about Madison that seems abundantly clear is his notion of the separation of church & state. His Remonstrance should be required reading for all politicians.

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: ex-preacher ]

03-24-2002, 02:50 PM	#27
ex-preacher Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: University of Arkansas Posts: 1,033	Thanks, Jerry, for the follow-up information. It is frustrating that so many of the key founders said so little about their own views on religion. It makes me wonder if they were so secretly unorthodox that they feared a political cost if they spoke their views publicly. Or maybe they were just being discreet and private about their views. Or maybe they didn't dwell that much on religious ideas. At any rate, they left lots for us to discuss and wonder about. The great thing about Madison that seems abundantly clear is his notion of the separation of church & state. His Remonstrance should be required reading for all politicians. [ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: ex-preacher ]</p>

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03-23-2002, 01:48 PM	#24
Oresta Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 1,107	Harumi, You might consider doing a thesis paper on this issue. All the sources you need have been cited here. Hi, Glen!

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