ken1burton

Nego.

One prophecy. Careful this could be your one potato chip type prophecy.

How about starting with "Let there be light.", God is saying for this to happen, And Jesus poured out the Light.

First day of Genesis is Sunset to Midnight. I am the True Vine, I am the Good shepherd, I am the Way the truth and the Life, In My Father's house are many mansions. As Jesus pours out the light.

Jesus taking sin, also got Him all the curses. One was to serve the gods of Wood and Stone. You might look around Golgotha for them.

There was a curse for the one who ended the Daily Sacrifice. Timbers was to be pulled down from His House, they were to be set up, and He was to be hung thereon. That curse is in Ezra, and it look to Calvary.

Ezekiel saw that every wall shall fall in that day. Too bad the 144 with Judas formed a wall around Jesus. I hope they did not hurt themselves when they fell.

Daniel saw He was to make a end of sin, and bring in everlasting righteousness. It also contained a seal, and the seal was real tight, the Disciples and Paul never did see sin ended.

And when He is judged, Let Him be condemned. and He was.

Don't like potato chips?

Ken

ken1burton

Woodchuck.

Careful with that: The bible says that God's desire is that "none should perish"

Jesus has many names in Scripture. NONE declareth, NONE showeth, When I called NONE did answer, There is NONE beside Me. NONE can by any means redeem His brother. along with hundreds of other places God uses the Word "NONE" where the name JESUS fits perfectly.

(2PETER 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (KJV)

I have not met "ANY", But "NONE" is a personal friend of mine.

Ken

Secular Elation

Welcome, Woodchuck.

You wrote,

You speak of the Christian God residing in an unprovable existence. If we're arguing the christian God than we need to keep it in line with everything the scriptures say of this God- that is that there is also Satan- the deciever. I think that if you've chosen to reject God than you can come up with an alternate reason for everything he does- heck, even people who saw God work firsthand in the bible still, later on disbelieved and decided that it just must have been something else. When God spoke from heaven and said "this is my son" those surrounding that didn't want to believe said "it thundered". I think allot of us think that if God made our macaroni and cheese get up and walk into a formation that read "hey secular, this is god, believe in me- I love you" if you're heart has already rejected God then you'll say your macaroni accidentally landed that way.

I'm sorry, I fail to follow your reasoning here. It seems you have evaded the issue of whether or not this god actually exists. Scripture is irrelevant--existential evidence is needed.

The lasting impression of a stupendous event is rare. Life isn't made up of stupendous events, it's reality- it's day by day, choice by choice- it's personal- and God would rather be personal than stupendous. When something that seems beyond reality happens to us, I think the filing system in our mind won't usually file those memories under "rational events" but closer to the "dreams and unclear thoughts" file. that's why God meets us on a personal level, that's why Christ came as a regular man and not some big rich king or mighty God like super human. So I think to expect God to appear to you in some stupendous happening, is to miss the point of God even wanting you to see him anyway. He created reality the way it is because he wants it that way- personal, real, and intimate.

Again, I do not completely follow. I do not mean to be crude, but what you are saying seems to be religious gibberish. That is honestly how I interpret it.

But it's not that I am waiting for this god to appear to me in "some stupendous happening"--if he exists, I just want him to show himself. If he does exist, he has certainly failed to do so.

I would also argue that if Satan has any brains at all, he'd do exactly what I'm talking about: he'd create a comfortable set of beliefs outside of God, he'd influence a logic that makes God illogical- I know that maybe that sounds crazy to you- but look at your life and be open to the fact that maybe there's a force that doesn't want you to ever believe, but on the contrary wants you to pursue a life where you feel meaningless and he never wants you to experience God's love.

First, you need to prove that Satan exists. Second, prove to me that this character is 'influencing illogic' about your god. It's not that there is "a force that doesn't want [me] to ever believe"--it's that I honestly find most of Christianity to be bogus and unfair. All my reason and sensibility tells me this. If Christianity was better than this, I might be more inclined towards it. But it is not.

As Dr. Gregory Boyd told his Father in "letters from a skeptic": "God can holler all he wants, but if people are covering up their ears they say 'why doesn't God talk?'"

My ears are wide open, waiting for such a signal. If this god exists, he has failed. I want hard, empirical evidence of his existence--not religious sentimentality to prove it.

I think that we need to define good here- if we're keeping in line with christianity, only God is good.

Then I reject that idea of 'good.' This god is not 'good' in my eyes--in my mind, being 'good' is when you do 'good' tings, such as being kind, not stealing, lying, etc.

If life is only truly lived "in Christ" then to consider yourself good apart from God is evil. For to convince yourself or anyone else that life is good without God is leading them to death.

Well, this life is only truly lived not in Christ, so your statement is invalid. When I convince people that a life without god is good, I am showing them a natural world where they are free to live their life to their own rules--not to some dictatorial deity and his contemptible morals.

When you meet Christ, the life you lived previously becomes so visibly corrupt that you consider it death- for the truth is that it is death.

Quite the contrary, in fact. I used to think that a life in Christ was a good life, but when I deconverted, I realized a world and life in which I could focus on this life and live it by the good morals of decency, not by the constricting Christian morals.

I make a lot of choices that are contrary to society- for instance, keeping my virginity until marriage. I don't condemn unbelievers for not doing what I do- but in the light of my experience I see that life is better apart from that, I DESIRE-stronger than my worldly desires because of Christ in me- to keep God's law- because God's law is a guideline to the best experience of life possible. (once again, if their is a satan, wouldn't he be trying to convince our culture that God's laws are stiff and boring- and that the real fun is outside God's law?)

1)It's up to the individual to decide if he/she wants to forfeit their virginity before marriage or not. No one else should dictate their decision.

2)"God's law" failed for me, and it has for many others. Trying to use it in favor of Christian belief is faulty.

3)Again, prove to me that this Satan is causing me to not believe.

The bible isn't calling you evil so much as it's calling your disposition evil. You seem like a nice enough guy from your post, and I've met lots of atheists, new agers, and all sorts of people who are incredibally good and nice, and I've also met allot of people who claim to be christians who are total jerks and snobs. All I'm saying is that if God created us to be in a relationship with Him, then to live contently without him is like a car running on apple juice- it's just gonna mess it up and break it down.

1)It sure looks to me like the Bible is very well condemning myself as evil. It says, "they [atheists] are corrupt"...this statement is directed at the individual.

2)I am happy to see that you agree that there are many nonbelievers who are nice people, but since we cannot know if this god wanted us in a relationship with him (since he is not proven to exist) and since I find many of the Christian teachings to be unjust, I reject your appeal.

God's whole purpose is love- love must have liberty- that is, free will and choice

Well! Then his sense of free will is awfully absurd--he wants people to submit to him, he wants people to follow his teachings and ten commandments. Those who do not are condemned. So much for free will.

If God is good, the absence of God is evil. We can disguise evil as our own interpretation of good, but that doesn't change the fact that it's evil, it just makes us more comfortable with a clouded evil.

You need to prove to us that your god is good. There is little to indicate this. Second, our own sense of 'good' is pretty satisfactory, if you ask me. The simple fact that this god would condemn me for thinking this is completely unjust.

You try to compare God with forceful dictators like Stalin. There is no comparison. Stalin's way of governing is based on his opinions and interpretations of this world, God's way of governing is based on his knowledge of his creation and knowing it's purpose and meaning. He's not trying to dictate you, he's trying to give you life to the fullest.

Oh, there is a comparison. Both your god and Stalin condemned those who dissented from them--there is no denying that. Besides, "God's way of governing" is terribly unsatisfactory and contemptible. Also, what if I don't want to go along his "purpose and meaning?" He should allow me to do so, but since he does not, he deserves criticism. Lastly, he is trying to dictate me. He's telling me to either believe or be condemned. Unquestionably dictatorial.

(This all depends on even if he exists, though)

I know that you're probably unmoved by all this, and I'm not trying to convert you- I'm just making my point like you made yours.

Fair enough.

From my point of view it would be incredibally evil of me not to do my best to answer those questions if I believe that you're missing out on life and headed for death, but not to condemn you for your choices.

You may not be condemning me for my choices, but your god is. Like I've reiterated, this is terribly unjust.

[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: Secular Elation ]</p>

woodchuck

ken1burton:
I didn't really understand the "none" thing.. please explain. I'm pretty slow-

and sorry if I offended anyone with what I said. Take it for what it's worth to you and ignore the rest, I'm not trying to piss anyone off, just trying to understand myself and others beliefs and this seems like a good place to learn.

woodchuck

ok... I know you all love me here, so I'll keep going. This is very interesting for me and very helpful so thankyou for responding.

Most of the responses I got wanted to get straight to the question- why even believe in God? You all say you want proof and empirical evidence. Well I'm no theologian or scientist, but I am a regular guy. It's interesting because my story's the oppositte- as a teenager I was a self proclaimed atheist (after growing up in the church) then found Christ for myself (I'll give you all time to roll your eyes and laugh at me, when you're done the next paragraph's just down below...)

Anyway, for now I'm going to explain my reasoning that a personal god exists- not so much that my personal biblical God exists. Like I said I'm new here and perhaps this is something you've all heard, so I'll try to keep what I say as real as I can and not give you cheese ball answers from the christian handbook for the non-believer "um.. well, the bible says there's a God so of course there is!"

This is the first time I've ever really put this thought process into words so bare with me:

When I look at people I see personal beings. We love, we trust, we get angry, we get sad, we long for meaning. We have morals, not just natural laws. We are rational, and self aware.

Now, whatever you want to call it- our universe has some sort of "force" behind it. It made us and all we have and all we are- it made those things I described above. It keeps us going, it keeps the world going, it keeps the univeres in order- it works out every minute detail of this incredibally uncomprehendable existence.

So, we are born with questions that this "force" has implanted in us because it has an answer. Example: I have thirst, the force creates water, I'm hungry, the force creates food, I have lungs, the force has oxygen, I have a sex drive, the force has created sex. It is all congruous.

Now, I personally find it hard to believe that this force- if it is merely some impersonal force- could create such personal beings. How could this force create these things if it itself has none of these characteristics? The attributes above mentioned (love, rationality, need for signifigance, morals...) are characterisitic of all humans. You know you got'em. But then how could whatever caused us not? Isn't the cause greater then the effect?

I know you've all heard the whole design argument- and as I said in my last post, you can come up with lots of reasons for anything depending what you want (yeah, that goes for me too) but this gets me the most. The reality we live within must be personal. To say it isn't would be so ridiculous as to assume that fish could exist but water not. people exist- but oxygen and vitamins... they don't- we just made them up to feel better.

So if the force behind the universe is just a force- it's nature, it's impersonal, it's just that thing that makes you have to take a dump and causes you chemically to fall in love out of stimulus response and whatever else... we're a joke. These conversations are pointless- morality is a comedy act, life itself is a pointless gag. Loving someone is no different then burping and blowing it in there face, rationality itself is irrational, and the search for meaning is a glitch in our distorted heads.

I'm going to quote Dr. Gregory Boyd's book Letters from a skeptic again (no that's not the only book I read, he just has some great insights in my opinion that aren't as average and robotic as much of christian lit.) This is a very good book, it's a correspondence of letters between this man and his skeptic Father- they cover allot of issues, and to me Dr. Boyd makes a lot of sense. I recommend it- man I'm sure you're all gonna jump right to Amazon and buy it right now aren't yah-


I'd also like to add that, considering how uncomprehendable and incredible and complex this universe is, wouldn't it's creator only be that much more uncomprehendable? You want me to explain God to you in a coupe paragraphs- explain to me all of the cosmos and how they work and all that entails in a few paragraphs... in fact- who understands it!?

I know you'll all have plenty of responses and I look forward to them- this was a little hard to put into words but I think I half way made my point. I'm not an intellectual, so I look forward to getting demolished by the rest of you brilliant thinkers. Have fun, I know you love pummeling idiotic religious types like myself and I don't mind. The more you tear into my arguments the more I'll have to think and the better an understanding I'll have so thanks!

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: woodchuck ]</p>

Skid

Hi woodchuck,

First, I want to apologize for my initial post – I’ll stand by my initial reaction, but I may have come across a little harsh. This was not my intention. I personally find it refreshing when religious people such as you come here for honest debate and exchange, rather than mindless preaching.

You might be surprised that I find it hard to disagree with most of what you wrote in your last post. The problem is when people make the leap from a "personal" god to a *GOD* that all must worship and obey.

This is precisely the point – I believe it was John Spong who wrote that the Bible is largely an attempt of man to "describe the indescribable", and as such, is not to be taken literally. Other religions and religious holy books are simply different sides of the same coin.

My biggest issue with religions in general (and Christianity in particular) is not the belief in a personal God. Rather, it’s the assertion of having the *** ONE AND ONLY TRUTH ***, to the exclusion of all other beliefs (and non-beliefs) that really gets me upset and irritated.

Back to Secular Elation’s original post – this assertion of universal truth (and condemnation of those who don’t believe) is one of many reasons not to be a Christian.

P.S.

I enjoyed reading your post – and I didn’t even roll my eyes or laugh, and I certainly wouldn’t call you an "idiotic religious type".

Jamie_L

If Christianity is true, and there is a God, and he is omnipotent, I can only conclude that he does not want me to believe or be Christian.

He constructed my nature.
He created all the things in the environment that nurtured the rest of my traits.
Thus, he is responsible for me being very skeptical and for wanting some evidence of existence (meaning something I consider evidence).
He has not shown me anything I consider evidence.
He has also not waved his magic wand and made me less skeptical or made me see all the "evidence" that believers supposedly see.

God created everything. God knows everything. If God wants me to be a certain way, I would think I would be that way. Since I don't believe, I can only conclude that a) God wants me that way, b) God doesn't care if I'm that way, or c) God is not actually omnipotent (which pretty much means xianity is false), or d) there is no God.

All things considered, I'm sticking with answer d). If God wants me to pick something else, he can tell me himself.

Jamie

woodchuck

Thanks for the response Mark S., I feel honored and accepted. (this is a lonely forum for christians) I'm preparing my response, but in the meantime I just wanted to thank you and I'll keep 'em comin'!

zamboniavenger

Hi Woodchuck

Everything is ultimately meaningless.
It's a little hard to swallow, sure, but is it so inconceivable that maybe life does not have some major objective purpose?

Aftre we exist, it matters not whether anyone has ever, or ever will again exist.
That might be true, but it matters now. Doesn't that count for anything? That's why I believe so strongly in making the most out of what I've got. It's because we don't live forever that we have to make the life we do have count. I've never understood xtians who say(not that you are one of them) that if there is no heavenly reward for being kind, you should be a total asshole. Anyways, that's kind of a pet peeve of mine.

woodchuck

Hey zamboniavenger- it's nice to meet someone on here with a name almost as wierd as mine (of course mine is at the same time pretty dorky, but I'm down with that)

Thanks for the feedback. Before I get into my next rant, I thought I'd comment on what you said in your reply:


Ah! But you have just admitted that you have a desire to make your life count- and that is my point. Meaning. We have a desire for meaning wether it's eternal or for one lifetime, every human has it (nobody exists like an insect and just emotionlessly and robotically pisses, craps, eats, drinks, and sleeps- at least no human I ever met- and surely not myself, the human I know the best.)- and my point was that, who ever or whatever created or caused us must have meaning itself- the whole congruous thing.

And I'm not saying that if there is no heavenly reward for being kind you have the right to be an "asshole"- I'm saying that there must be something behind morality- there must be the greater cause of the morality- and in that there must somewhere be an absolute morality... more on that later! you are very kind zamboniavenger, I hope you keep in touch

OK- and now, I want to move a little further here and begin to address the whole "empirical evidence" and the whole "see to believe" and "it must be compatible with one or more of the five senses" thing- I would like tackle this one for now, and I know much more will follow.

This is very popular, especially around these parts- for instance, good ol' secular elation not long ago said this to me:

I want to petition that before we ask for empirical evidence of something- we ask ourselves if the thing itself is empirical. I can see all your faces right now:

Bare with me...

Rationality. Love. Life. Your thoughts. values. philosophy. Wind. Magnetic Force. (to name a few) ...None of these things can be sensed by any of the 5 senses, does that mean they don't exist? In fact, even sec's statement can't be seen, heard, smelled, tasted, or touched in itself. You may argue- you can see it!!! ok, well lets look at it:

ok- now, if I only use my sense of sight- what do I see? I see a bunch of little black squares that combine to make little shapes on a big glowing box in front of me. Sight in itself in this case is very unhelpful...

So perhaps if I call Secular up and have hime say it to me? my sense of hearing would take in a combination of sounds, perhaps an inhilation or two.. I might hear sec snif cause he has allergies, I'll hear his tongue slap around in his mouth and his lips go up and down, and even the vibration of sound waves will enter my ear..., and when he's done with his scentence I'll say.. "hm.. neat sounds secular!" but hearing alone is a tiny tiny thing compared to our mind which takes that information and percieves it- and once again, a mind, and the perception of the mind is unphysical, and cannot be sensed by any of the big 5.

ok- I know your probably either or or or <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> ... which ever, I'm not done. (though I can't garuntee you'll feel much different when I'm done either...)

So thoughts exist right? Otherwise I couldn't be typing this, nor could you be taking it in- ok, I'm sure you got my point on that one.

Something about God: God is Spirit. What is Spirit more like? A good deed... or the knowledge of good? A hug to show love.. or love itself? A sheet of music... or music itself? A friend... or that force that drives a friendship even to exist? My point is that God isn't a human, nor is he a fart, or a dog, or an old man eating a prune in Kansas (sorry, I'm kind of random) God, as the creator of our universe is of an existence outside our universe... he isn't bound by our existence, he created it!

I used to love playing with Ninja Turtle Action Figures- now, could it be that the man who made those action figures could only move his wrists in a circle, his legs and shoulders just barely, and his head would just be a squishy hollow rubber sculpture (like many of you probably think mine is)? Of course not- a creation is limited by it's creator, the creator is not limited by his creation.

I'm gonna quote C.S. Lewis because I'm sure you're all huge fans, this is from Christian Reflections:

So truly, to try to apply earthly science to an unearthly God is asking wrongly (though I belive there is scientific evidence for God - but like I said before, you can do what you want with what you get- if you recieve evidence of God, you can decide it's actually evidence of something else)

You don't begin to sniff your books, or lick them to read them- you must see, and percieve the content. Likewise- if you are being serenaded and the serenader says they will play any kind of song you want, you don't say "play me a green song please" for you can't play purple notes, nor can you sing in the key of yellow... this is called commiting a category fallacy. Trying to assign to something a property that only applies to another category.

On another note (what ever color you want)... The claim that all things must be seen to be believed is pretty contrary to reality isn't it? Does a thing exist just because you observe it with a sense, or all senses? Or does it continue to exist even when you don't observe it? If you agree that your computer will exist even when nature calls and you need to go use the restroom, then you must admit: things exist wether your senses take them in or not.

My main point here is this: God isn't empirical- empirical Gods are called Idols. They're man made and they do what you tell them.

I'm going to stick with the subject of us being personal beings, and that force (what I believe is God) behind existence being personal- and that force being the creator of all attributes that are personal. Because in my experience, this is where God meets us- in an unempirical way, but that does not say he isn't real anymore than your thoughts aren't real. He created us personal because he wants to be personal with us... and I hope that someone out there begins to realize this as they look for him. I also hope that this helps you with where to look.

Some might call this a weak argument, some might call it religious gibberish- but most of it was me being honest, and I as real as i can out of myself. I was going to try to also cover the whole punishment issue a little further, but I think I've said enough for now. Can't wait to hear back. For further referance to what I talked about here check out "Christian Reflections" by C.S. Lewis, and "Scaling the Secular City: a defense of the Christianity" by J.P. Moreland. I know you will.

Catch you on the flipside homies
-your religious hypocrite buddy EEf <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />